1 00:00:35,049 --> 00:00:12,169 this is somewhere in the skies the 2 00:00:40,189 --> 00:00:37,549 welcome to somewhere in the skies I'm 3 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:40,199 your host Ryan Sprague and today we're 4 00:00:46,579 --> 00:00:43,050 talking to science writer Sarah skulls 5 00:00:51,740 --> 00:00:46,589 about her new book they are already here 6 00:00:54,380 --> 00:00:51,750 UFO culture and why we see saucers this 7 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:54,390 book which will release on March 3rd is 8 00:00:59,299 --> 00:00:56,970 an anthropological look at the UFO 9 00:01:02,180 --> 00:00:59,309 community told through first-person 10 00:01:05,090 --> 00:01:02,190 experiences with researchers in their 11 00:01:08,289 --> 00:01:05,100 element as they pursue what they see as 12 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:08,299 a solvable mystery both terrestrial and 13 00:01:13,700 --> 00:01:11,130 cosmic more than half a century since 14 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:13,710 Roswell UFOs have been making headlines 15 00:01:21,530 --> 00:01:18,900 once again on December 17 2017 the New 16 00:01:24,710 --> 00:01:21,540 York Times ran a front-page story about 17 00:01:26,810 --> 00:01:24,720 an approximately five year program by 18 00:01:29,859 --> 00:01:26,820 the Pentagon called the advanced 19 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:29,869 aerospace threat identification program 20 00:01:34,969 --> 00:01:32,969 the article hinted and its sources 21 00:01:37,249 --> 00:01:34,979 clearly said in subsequent television 22 00:01:39,679 --> 00:01:37,259 interviews that some of the ships in 23 00:01:42,830 --> 00:01:39,689 question couldn't be linked to any 24 00:01:45,260 --> 00:01:42,840 country the implication of course was 25 00:01:49,099 --> 00:01:45,270 that they might be linked to other solar 26 00:01:51,739 --> 00:01:49,109 systems the UFO community those who had 27 00:01:54,679 --> 00:01:51,749 been thinking about seeing and analyzing 28 00:01:57,529 --> 00:01:54,689 suppose at flying saucers for years was 29 00:02:00,980 --> 00:01:57,539 surprisingly skeptical of the revelation 30 00:02:03,649 --> 00:02:00,990 their incredulity and doubt rippled 31 00:02:06,830 --> 00:02:03,659 across the Internet many of the people 32 00:02:09,650 --> 00:02:06,840 most invested in UFO reality weren't 33 00:02:11,780 --> 00:02:09,660 really buying it and as Sarah did her 34 00:02:14,150 --> 00:02:11,790 own digging she ventured to dark 35 00:02:16,670 --> 00:02:14,160 conspiracy filled corners of the 36 00:02:20,270 --> 00:02:16,680 Internet to a former Paranormal Research 37 00:02:24,020 --> 00:02:20,280 Center in Utah and to the hallways of 38 00:02:25,250 --> 00:02:24,030 the Pentagon in they are already here we 39 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:25,260 meet the bigwigs 40 00:02:35,460 --> 00:02:26,170 the 41 00:02:37,770 --> 00:02:35,470 cooks of this sprawling community how do 42 00:02:40,290 --> 00:02:37,780 they interact with each other how do 43 00:02:43,020 --> 00:02:40,300 they interact with anomalous phenomenon 44 00:02:46,350 --> 00:02:43,030 and how do they as any group must 45 00:02:49,530 --> 00:02:46,360 reflect the politics and culture of the 46 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:49,540 larger world around them we'll tackle 47 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:51,489 this and so much more in our 48 00:02:57,449 --> 00:02:55,930 conversation with Sarah sculls Sarah 49 00:02:59,250 --> 00:02:57,459 thank you so much for joining me today 50 00:03:01,259 --> 00:02:59,260 on somewhere in the skies yeah thank you 51 00:03:02,550 --> 00:03:01,269 so much for having me Ren absolutely 52 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:02,560 it's such a small world 53 00:03:06,809 --> 00:03:04,690 I had read one of your books a few years 54 00:03:09,870 --> 00:03:06,819 ago and then I would say a few months 55 00:03:12,449 --> 00:03:09,880 ago I I heard you on one of the podcasts 56 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:12,459 I listened to the mad scientist podcast 57 00:03:16,559 --> 00:03:14,890 and I started doing some digging and I 58 00:03:19,650 --> 00:03:16,569 was like oh my god that's the author of 59 00:03:21,630 --> 00:03:19,660 the book I read that's so cool yeah I 60 00:03:23,430 --> 00:03:21,640 mean it's awesome for me as a writer to 61 00:03:25,199 --> 00:03:23,440 hear that anyone who's read my books so 62 00:03:27,570 --> 00:03:25,209 I'm glad you didn't I'm glad you liked 63 00:03:29,430 --> 00:03:27,580 it and now that I've been on the mad 64 00:03:32,580 --> 00:03:29,440 scientist podcast I listen to it all the 65 00:03:36,180 --> 00:03:32,590 time yeah that tends to happen yep and 66 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:36,190 yeah you've been pulled into this UFO 67 00:03:40,620 --> 00:03:38,650 subculture which we're gonna get to but 68 00:03:43,259 --> 00:03:40,630 I hope this will be an easier one for 69 00:03:45,539 --> 00:03:43,269 you cuz you know I'm not about the the 70 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:45,549 hard core belief and woowoo and all that 71 00:03:48,750 --> 00:03:46,930 stuff I like to take a grounded 72 00:03:50,970 --> 00:03:48,760 objective approach with the show and 73 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:50,980 that's why your work resonated so much 74 00:03:55,770 --> 00:03:53,890 with me so we will definitely talk about 75 00:03:58,140 --> 00:03:55,780 that in your new book they are already 76 00:04:00,120 --> 00:03:58,150 here UFO culture and why we see saucers 77 00:04:02,190 --> 00:04:00,130 but um before we even get to that Sarah 78 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:02,200 could it's maybe for my audience who's 79 00:04:06,150 --> 00:04:03,730 never heard of you could you give them a 80 00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:06,160 little feel of who you are and what you 81 00:04:11,009 --> 00:04:08,590 do sure yeah I'm a freelance science 82 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:11,019 journalist and I'm a contributing writer 83 00:04:15,449 --> 00:04:13,090 at Wired magazine in popular science 84 00:04:18,210 --> 00:04:15,459 which is where probably most of my stuff 85 00:04:19,650 --> 00:04:18,220 appears and aside from this book I mean 86 00:04:21,599 --> 00:04:19,660 I don't actually cover you have those 87 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:21,609 full time I mostly write about space 88 00:04:26,790 --> 00:04:24,010 businesses the satellite industry and 89 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:26,800 kind of culture within astronomy and 90 00:04:31,469 --> 00:04:29,530 science so that's what I do most of the 91 00:04:34,589 --> 00:04:31,479 time and then other times I go down this 92 00:04:36,149 --> 00:04:34,599 rabbit hole with you yes it's good to 93 00:04:38,850 --> 00:04:36,159 get in and out of that rabbit hole every 94 00:04:39,629 --> 00:04:38,860 now and again but um yeah so like I said 95 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:39,639 I 96 00:04:44,429 --> 00:04:41,710 first heard about your work through your 97 00:04:46,559 --> 00:04:44,439 book making contact so could you tell us 98 00:04:49,619 --> 00:04:46,569 maybe a little about that book and what 99 00:04:51,899 --> 00:04:49,629 inspired you to to write it sure so this 100 00:04:54,450 --> 00:04:51,909 book making contact it's a biography of 101 00:04:56,700 --> 00:04:54,460 a scientist named Jill tarter she's a 102 00:05:00,809 --> 00:04:56,710 radio astronomer and she has spent the 103 00:05:01,649 --> 00:05:00,819 past seif more than 40 years working in 104 00:05:04,860 --> 00:05:01,659 the search for extraterrestrial 105 00:05:07,260 --> 00:05:04,870 intelligence SETI mostly looking for 106 00:05:10,110 --> 00:05:07,270 radio signals from maybe alien 107 00:05:13,050 --> 00:05:10,120 civilizations we should be searching for 108 00:05:15,809 --> 00:05:13,060 life beyond the earth because we want to 109 00:05:18,209 --> 00:05:15,819 understand what the laws of chemistry 110 00:05:21,899 --> 00:05:18,219 and physics have produced in this 111 00:05:24,059 --> 00:05:21,909 universe are we the only life serious 112 00:05:28,559 --> 00:05:24,069 are we the only intelligent species or 113 00:05:30,059 --> 00:05:28,569 are we one of many how do we fit in it's 114 00:05:33,209 --> 00:05:30,069 a very old question 115 00:05:37,860 --> 00:05:33,219 humans have asked it and we want to find 116 00:05:40,709 --> 00:05:37,870 the answer and I first encountered Jill 117 00:05:42,869 --> 00:05:40,719 Tartars work in fictional form she was 118 00:05:46,409 --> 00:05:42,879 the basis for the main character in the 119 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:46,419 book and movie contact and I saw the 120 00:05:50,790 --> 00:05:48,370 movie contact when I was like 12 years 121 00:05:52,790 --> 00:05:50,800 old and I became totally obsessed with 122 00:05:54,779 --> 00:05:52,800 it I made my parents just rent it from 123 00:05:58,320 --> 00:05:54,789 Blockbuster all the time when 124 00:06:01,079 --> 00:05:58,330 blockbuster was a thing it was worth the 125 00:06:04,740 --> 00:06:01,089 days just imagine if I could have 126 00:06:06,990 --> 00:06:04,750 streamed it when I was 12 every day but 127 00:06:09,029 --> 00:06:07,000 it was the first time I realized a that 128 00:06:11,639 --> 00:06:09,039 radio astronomy existed and I thought it 129 00:06:13,950 --> 00:06:11,649 was so cool that you could get invisible 130 00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:13,960 information from the universe and also 131 00:06:18,450 --> 00:06:15,969 that there were scientists whose job it 132 00:06:20,579 --> 00:06:18,460 was to like ask big questions like are 133 00:06:22,260 --> 00:06:20,589 we alone what else is going on in the 134 00:06:24,389 --> 00:06:22,270 universe what are we doing here and I 135 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:24,399 just thought that was so so interesting 136 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:27,550 and it led me in the direction of I 137 00:06:32,010 --> 00:06:29,770 wanted to be a radio astronomer at first 138 00:06:33,749 --> 00:06:32,020 and I did some schooling and internships 139 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:33,759 in that direction but eventually I got 140 00:06:39,510 --> 00:06:36,870 into writing instead and so then when I 141 00:06:41,850 --> 00:06:39,520 thought hey maybe I want to write a book 142 00:06:44,369 --> 00:06:41,860 I was thinking about you know what is a 143 00:06:46,139 --> 00:06:44,379 subject that I would love enough to 144 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:46,149 spend enough time on it to write 145 00:06:50,579 --> 00:06:48,849 250 pages or whatever and I went back to 146 00:06:53,020 --> 00:06:50,589 this first thing that had inspired me so 147 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:53,030 much and I just wrote Jill tarter and 148 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:54,710 and I said hey you've cut you don't know 149 00:06:59,200 --> 00:06:56,450 me really but you've been my inspiration 150 00:07:01,300 --> 00:06:59,210 for you know a long time and no one's 151 00:07:03,940 --> 00:07:01,310 written your biography maybe I could do 152 00:07:05,770 --> 00:07:03,950 it and she said let's give it a shot 153 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:05,780 what was it like I mean I would imagine 154 00:07:10,750 --> 00:07:08,570 you you were talking to her all the time 155 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:10,760 every day the book was so descriptive 156 00:07:16,030 --> 00:07:13,970 and and accurate to her life and it was 157 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:16,040 very inspirational so what was that like 158 00:07:20,500 --> 00:07:18,290 did you ever meet her in person yeah I 159 00:07:22,690 --> 00:07:20,510 actually I was working at a strong Emmy 160 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:22,700 magazine at the time when I first got 161 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:24,710 the idea and I actually quit that job 162 00:07:29,710 --> 00:07:27,290 just to move to California and be able 163 00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:29,720 to be around her and interview her all 164 00:07:32,230 --> 00:07:30,260 the time 165 00:07:33,850 --> 00:07:32,240 so that's when I started freelancing and 166 00:07:35,230 --> 00:07:33,860 I would just go over to her house and in 167 00:07:37,210 --> 00:07:35,240 Berkeley and we would go through her 168 00:07:40,570 --> 00:07:37,220 photo albums and she actually had this 169 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:40,580 list of her 100 top moments in life so 170 00:07:45,550 --> 00:07:43,130 we kind of just went through her 100 top 171 00:07:46,870 --> 00:07:45,560 moments and figured out you know what 172 00:07:48,850 --> 00:07:46,880 what the search for extraterrestrial 173 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:48,860 intelligence had been up to for the past 174 00:07:52,450 --> 00:07:50,810 40 years because she was the person who 175 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:52,460 had kind of been there the whole time 176 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:53,810 and we're definitely we're gonna revisit 177 00:07:58,150 --> 00:07:55,730 SETI I think a little bit in this 178 00:08:00,940 --> 00:07:58,160 conversation but um yeah that was so 179 00:08:03,430 --> 00:08:00,950 exciting so then this led to your second 180 00:08:05,470 --> 00:08:03,440 book they are already here UFO culture 181 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:05,480 and why we see saucers so you move to 182 00:08:09,940 --> 00:08:07,970 this you move from making contact SETI a 183 00:08:12,430 --> 00:08:09,950 lot of us in the UFO field no matter 184 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:12,440 your thoughts on SETI know what it is 185 00:08:20,460 --> 00:08:16,490 what it represents but then the new book 186 00:08:23,530 --> 00:08:20,470 came and it started with your own 187 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:23,540 admittance to a UFO sighting which you 188 00:08:27,940 --> 00:08:25,370 know I can attest you to when I first 189 00:08:30,070 --> 00:08:27,950 wrote my UFO book I was very hesitant to 190 00:08:31,390 --> 00:08:30,080 include my own story in the book I 191 00:08:33,490 --> 00:08:31,400 didn't know how people would feel about 192 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:33,500 it but you know I went full steam ahead 193 00:08:36,820 --> 00:08:34,910 and said look if I'm gonna write a book 194 00:08:39,850 --> 00:08:36,830 about people having UFO sightings I 195 00:08:41,650 --> 00:08:39,860 gotta talk about my own otherwise you 196 00:08:43,450 --> 00:08:41,660 know what's the point so would you mind 197 00:08:45,130 --> 00:08:43,460 maybe telling us a little about the 198 00:08:47,380 --> 00:08:45,140 experience that you relay in the 199 00:08:49,300 --> 00:08:47,390 beginning of your new book sure yeah it 200 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:49,310 starts with the solar eclipse that 201 00:08:54,580 --> 00:08:52,130 happened a few years ago and I went out 202 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:54,590 to Wyoming I live in Colorado so he just 203 00:09:01,180 --> 00:08:57,410 drove up north kind of near Jackson Hole 204 00:09:03,370 --> 00:09:01,190 in Wyoming and my friends and I didn't 205 00:09:05,170 --> 00:09:03,380 want to pay like $5,000 a night for 206 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:05,180 somebody's air B&B and so we were just 207 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:06,570 camping out 208 00:09:11,390 --> 00:09:08,910 the National Forest and we you know 209 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:11,400 hiked up to the top of a mountain saw 210 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:12,810 the whole solar eclipse which was 211 00:09:18,140 --> 00:09:14,490 incredible I'm sure some of your 212 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:18,150 listeners saw it too and it was just we 213 00:09:22,250 --> 00:09:19,530 all talked about it like it was kind of 214 00:09:24,410 --> 00:09:22,260 like being on a different planet to see 215 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:24,420 something like that happened and for the 216 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:26,370 earth to change so much so we did that 217 00:09:31,370 --> 00:09:29,490 we hiked back down and as we did every 218 00:09:33,830 --> 00:09:31,380 night on this trip we went stargazing 219 00:09:35,930 --> 00:09:33,840 right before we went to bed and as we 220 00:09:37,700 --> 00:09:35,940 were doing that we saw this thing that 221 00:09:39,830 --> 00:09:37,710 looked like it looked like a satellite 222 00:09:41,540 --> 00:09:39,840 it was moving like a satellite across 223 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:41,550 the sky and we were watching it and then 224 00:09:45,950 --> 00:09:43,290 as we were watching it this beam of 225 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:45,960 light just kind of swept down from it 226 00:09:51,890 --> 00:09:48,930 and then came to focus right on us for a 227 00:09:54,380 --> 00:09:51,900 second and then went away and none of us 228 00:09:56,630 --> 00:09:54,390 said anything as it was going on because 229 00:09:58,280 --> 00:09:56,640 we were just kind of in awe like what is 230 00:10:02,270 --> 00:09:58,290 going on what is happening how does this 231 00:10:04,550 --> 00:10:02,280 thing know we're here and we were just 232 00:10:05,930 --> 00:10:04,560 very perplexed for a few minutes and we 233 00:10:08,020 --> 00:10:05,940 you know we threw out the alien 234 00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:08,030 hypothesis maybe this is the time that 235 00:10:12,820 --> 00:10:10,560 something something truly mysterious 236 00:10:14,810 --> 00:10:12,830 really is happening to us and then 237 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:14,820 eventually after a few minutes we 238 00:10:18,850 --> 00:10:16,890 realized that it was actually an Iridium 239 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:18,860 flair for one of the Iridium 240 00:10:23,510 --> 00:10:22,410 communications satellites but that that 241 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:23,520 sighting even though we eventually 242 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:26,010 figured out what it was it really gave 243 00:10:32,390 --> 00:10:29,250 me a sense of what it's like to have a 244 00:10:33,860 --> 00:10:32,400 UFO sighting and what it means to see a 245 00:10:36,170 --> 00:10:33,870 mystery and this guy and to think like 246 00:10:37,610 --> 00:10:36,180 just even even just for a second even 247 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:37,620 though we've figured it out there's 248 00:10:42,050 --> 00:10:39,090 truly some mystery up there and like 249 00:10:43,790 --> 00:10:42,060 something cares that I'm here I like 250 00:10:46,730 --> 00:10:43,800 that yeah and I mean you know no matter 251 00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:46,740 what the the answer to a UFO sighting is 252 00:10:50,180 --> 00:10:48,240 even if it's something conventional 253 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:50,190 prosaic whether or not only what have 254 00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:52,890 you um that doesn't take away any of the 255 00:10:56,630 --> 00:10:54,720 extraordinary power behind it I feel 256 00:10:58,700 --> 00:10:56,640 either I mean there's so many things 257 00:11:01,010 --> 00:10:58,710 here on earth that continue to mystify 258 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:01,020 us that probably aren't alien or 259 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:04,650 probably normal so that's pretty cool it 260 00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:06,690 was kind of like your origin story and 261 00:11:10,670 --> 00:11:09,180 to him the UFO world so I was happy to 262 00:11:13,070 --> 00:11:10,680 hear about that in the beginning of the 263 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:13,080 book something really hard to hit us 264 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:14,730 with at the beginning so that was great 265 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:18,250 yeah I guess from that 266 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:21,310 what compelled you to to write this book 267 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:23,770 specifically on UFOs and sort of the 268 00:11:28,980 --> 00:11:26,530 culture that's born from this topic what 269 00:11:32,730 --> 00:11:28,990 what made you go from making contact to 270 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:32,740 this yeah I think a lot of people would 271 00:11:37,470 --> 00:11:33,730 like the answer to that question 272 00:11:39,420 --> 00:11:37,480 especially maybe Jill tarter yeah but 273 00:11:41,460 --> 00:11:39,430 yeah it really started a few months 274 00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:41,470 after that that sighting and the solar 275 00:11:48,330 --> 00:11:46,240 eclipse in December 2017 like for a lot 276 00:11:50,970 --> 00:11:48,340 of people I read the New York Times 277 00:11:54,030 --> 00:11:50,980 article about the advanced aerospace 278 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:54,040 threat identification program earlier 279 00:11:57,930 --> 00:11:55,810 this week the New York Times in Politico 280 00:12:00,810 --> 00:11:57,940 revealed the existence of a secret 281 00:12:02,970 --> 00:12:00,820 government program to investigate UFO 282 00:12:05,010 --> 00:12:02,980 sightings it was especially focused on 283 00:12:08,130 --> 00:12:05,020 encounters by members of the military 284 00:12:10,410 --> 00:12:08,140 the program began in 2007 and ended five 285 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:10,420 years later but it's former head Luis 286 00:12:14,580 --> 00:12:12,490 Elizondo is convinced that something 287 00:12:16,650 --> 00:12:14,590 compelling is out there what we are 288 00:12:18,780 --> 00:12:16,660 seeing is something that is is not 289 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:18,790 traditional aircraft it's not a drone 290 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:21,730 it's not something that we can easily 291 00:12:25,470 --> 00:12:24,130 say oh that's an airplane or that 292 00:12:28,770 --> 00:12:25,480 belongs to this country or that country 293 00:12:31,079 --> 00:12:28,780 in fact my submission is that what we 294 00:12:33,780 --> 00:12:31,089 are looking at is truly by definition 295 00:12:36,329 --> 00:12:33,790 exotic technologies beyond beyond 296 00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:36,339 next-generation technologies it seemed 297 00:12:41,550 --> 00:12:38,560 to me to be making incredible claims 298 00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:41,560 that would be you know one of the 299 00:12:47,070 --> 00:12:43,060 biggest stories in history of what it 300 00:12:49,170 --> 00:12:47,080 was implying was true and since my job 301 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:49,180 as a journalist is to go you know 302 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:51,610 investigate and confirm things when my 303 00:12:55,020 --> 00:12:53,530 editor asked like hey do you want to go 304 00:12:57,270 --> 00:12:55,030 look into this thing many are times 305 00:13:00,300 --> 00:12:57,280 published I said yeah sure so I just I 306 00:13:02,460 --> 00:13:00,310 started following up on what was in that 307 00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:02,470 article about the Pentagon's UFO 308 00:13:06,270 --> 00:13:04,720 research and the videos that I'm sure 309 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:06,280 lots of your listeners are familiar with 310 00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:08,290 I'm just kind of going through point by 311 00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:09,670 point and seeing what I could find out 312 00:13:15,390 --> 00:13:13,270 and that's a whole other story but I 313 00:13:17,850 --> 00:13:15,400 guess the gist of it is that you know I 314 00:13:20,100 --> 00:13:17,860 was super new to the UFO field and there 315 00:13:21,690 --> 00:13:20,110 are people like you and others who have 316 00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:21,700 been in it for years and years and know 317 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:25,270 a whole lot more than I do and so you 318 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:26,770 know when you're a reporter you have the 319 00:13:31,620 --> 00:13:28,810 benefit of just being able to ask people 320 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:31,630 about their knowledge so that you don't 321 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:32,050 have to 322 00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:34,450 it from the ground up so I I got to know 323 00:13:40,050 --> 00:13:37,690 just UFO researchers who had a much 324 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:40,060 bigger background Infirmary context of 325 00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:43,330 what was going on and they you know they 326 00:13:48,210 --> 00:13:45,430 weren't who I expected them to be I had 327 00:13:54,690 --> 00:13:48,220 a lot of ideas about who cared about 328 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:54,700 UFOs and they weren't all flattering and 329 00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:56,410 so because of that I was like surprised 330 00:13:59,340 --> 00:13:58,240 to meet people who were doing who I 331 00:14:00,630 --> 00:13:59,350 thought we're doing really great work 332 00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:00,640 who were doing a better job 333 00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:03,220 investigating than I was and it made me 334 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:05,440 just want to get to know more about you 335 00:14:09,509 --> 00:14:07,510 know their world and what fascinated 336 00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:09,519 them about this and then also kind of 337 00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:11,560 understand why this New York Times story 338 00:14:16,650 --> 00:14:13,360 and a tip we're hitting such a cultural 339 00:14:18,780 --> 00:14:16,660 nerve right now yeah it is it's very 340 00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:18,790 timely and we'll definitely get to a tip 341 00:14:23,790 --> 00:14:21,760 and Tom DeLonge and what you're doing 342 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:23,800 whether people think it's good or bad 343 00:14:29,730 --> 00:14:25,890 for the UFO community or the UFO topic 344 00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:29,740 overall but um yes you you started the 345 00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:31,600 book you went into the belly of the 346 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:34,870 beast the UFO Congress know this is 347 00:14:36,690 --> 00:14:36,370 something that is near and dear to my 348 00:14:40,319 --> 00:14:36,700 heart 349 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:40,329 I spent God how many years volunteering 350 00:14:44,340 --> 00:14:42,490 at this event every year I would fly out 351 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:44,350 to Arizona from New York just to 352 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:46,570 volunteer go backstage work the sound 353 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:48,970 I'll clean the toilets if you want me to 354 00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:51,010 I don't care but get me to the UFO 355 00:14:55,550 --> 00:14:53,110 Congress the biggest UFO convention 356 00:15:00,290 --> 00:14:55,560 pretty much in North America and it is 357 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:00,300 it's an experience as I'm sure you so 358 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:03,370 what did you take from going to this 359 00:15:09,150 --> 00:15:06,850 event Sara and yeah yeah how was it 360 00:15:11,010 --> 00:15:09,160 going to the International UFO Congress 361 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:11,020 for the first time I feel like I should 362 00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:12,610 have volunteered to clean toilets I 363 00:15:18,750 --> 00:15:15,279 might explain something also but yeah I 364 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:18,760 was a couple months in to working on 365 00:15:22,590 --> 00:15:21,370 some stories for Wired about this and so 366 00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:22,600 I just thought you know I haven't 367 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:26,560 actually met any UFO people for lack of 368 00:15:31,170 --> 00:15:28,570 a better term and I haven't interacted 369 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:31,180 with anyone in person and you know this 370 00:15:33,810 --> 00:15:32,470 conference is happening and maybe I 371 00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:33,820 should just go so I just got a 372 00:15:39,090 --> 00:15:36,399 last-minute ticket to Arizona and a very 373 00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:39,100 cheap hotel room and flew out kind of on 374 00:15:44,670 --> 00:15:41,920 a whim and I wanted to get a sense of 375 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:44,680 like the scope of the community and the 376 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:45,150 variety 377 00:15:50,740 --> 00:15:47,970 of interests and and also see how people 378 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:50,750 were talking about the these new UFO 379 00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:53,250 revelations so the chapter is mostly in 380 00:15:56,570 --> 00:15:55,080 a just an account of what it was like to 381 00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:56,580 be at the conference and I think my 382 00:16:00,940 --> 00:15:58,800 biggest takeaway which I'm sure you 383 00:16:04,070 --> 00:16:00,950 found going there also is just the huge 384 00:16:07,820 --> 00:16:04,080 spectrum of beliefs and interest that 385 00:16:09,020 --> 00:16:07,830 people have so I guess like like one of 386 00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:09,030 the first talks I went to when I was 387 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:12,150 there was by researcher named Cheryl 388 00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:15,090 Kosta November 4 2012 there's a little 389 00:16:20,630 --> 00:16:17,790 article says UFOs have been declining 390 00:16:23,330 --> 00:16:20,640 since the 1980s maybe they were always 391 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:23,340 just an urban legend and being well-read 392 00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:25,770 I said that doesn't sound right so I 393 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:27,510 went out to the national UFO Reporting 394 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:29,610 Center and I looked up the year of me 395 00:16:33,410 --> 00:16:31,530 numbers and the chart went up like this 396 00:16:35,510 --> 00:16:33,420 and I'm thinking the first question I 397 00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:35,520 thought to myself this is baloney this 398 00:16:40,310 --> 00:16:38,190 is misinformation surely after that I 399 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:40,320 started reading some of these reports on 400 00:16:44,750 --> 00:16:42,330 the national databases from New York 401 00:16:46,070 --> 00:16:44,760 State very very amazing stories she 402 00:16:48,110 --> 00:16:46,080 everybody had been told up until that 403 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:48,120 point only coops and crackpots log these 404 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:50,370 things and I found it was mostly people 405 00:16:55,250 --> 00:16:53,130 who saw something amazing and wanted to 406 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:55,260 tell the story and say god this is what 407 00:16:58,910 --> 00:16:56,730 I saw I didn't believe in this stuff 408 00:17:02,030 --> 00:16:58,920 until I saw this thing so I went to a 409 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:02,040 couple of editors in 2013 and pitched 410 00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:04,890 the idea of doing up like a weekly UFO 411 00:17:09,199 --> 00:17:06,959 column for New York State and I got 412 00:17:10,790 --> 00:17:09,209 thrown out a couple offices left out of 413 00:17:13,610 --> 00:17:10,800 a couple offices finally I found an 414 00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:13,620 editor at Syracuse New Times and he said 415 00:17:16,940 --> 00:17:15,480 let's try this so we tried it for a 416 00:17:19,310 --> 00:17:16,950 month he calls me in I figured he can 417 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:19,320 take me off he says none we're not 418 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:20,970 taking you down you're doing better than 419 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:22,650 all the rest of the columnist combined 420 00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:25,050 who had done a statistical analysis of a 421 00:17:32,540 --> 00:17:28,350 bunch of sightings and kind of affirmed 422 00:17:34,370 --> 00:17:32,550 some some ideas and had had interesting 423 00:17:35,780 --> 00:17:34,380 information about like who sees UFOs 424 00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:35,790 which are people who have dogs and 425 00:17:38,420 --> 00:17:37,200 people who smoke because they're outside 426 00:17:41,950 --> 00:17:38,430 and they know what it looks like in this 427 00:17:44,090 --> 00:17:41,960 guy and then found other things 428 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:44,100 contradictory to what people think like 429 00:17:48,050 --> 00:17:45,810 that there aren't more UFO sightings 430 00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:48,060 around nuclear sites and things like 431 00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:49,860 that but then there were other people 432 00:17:56,660 --> 00:17:53,910 like speaking about more dubious things 433 00:17:58,610 --> 00:17:56,670 like a secret space program or showing 434 00:17:59,450 --> 00:17:58,620 documents that had already been proven 435 00:18:00,889 --> 00:17:59,460 to be 436 00:18:02,539 --> 00:18:00,899 hoaxes and I just I found it really 437 00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:02,549 fascinating all of these different 438 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:04,320 people kind of along different lines of 439 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:06,450 evidence I've gotten together at the 440 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:08,370 same place and we're sharing all their 441 00:18:14,690 --> 00:18:11,970 information and yeah it took me a while 442 00:18:17,330 --> 00:18:14,700 to try to make sense of that but at the 443 00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:17,340 end of the conference I went to a talk 444 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:20,460 that Robbie Graham gave which yeah which 445 00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:23,690 was kind of about a little bit about how 446 00:18:30,980 --> 00:18:26,240 UFO culture is a little bit like 447 00:18:32,779 --> 00:18:30,990 religion and that that made me go get a 448 00:18:34,279 --> 00:18:32,789 book that he'd edited called reframing 449 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:34,289 the debate which kind of talks about 450 00:18:38,750 --> 00:18:36,210 talks about that and the different 451 00:18:40,340 --> 00:18:38,760 spectrums of belief and how people treat 452 00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:40,350 stuff and then that led me to a bunch of 453 00:18:45,409 --> 00:18:42,809 academic papers from religious scholars 454 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:45,419 and anthropologists and then yeah then I 455 00:18:52,610 --> 00:18:47,130 was in the middle of writing a book when 456 00:18:54,049 --> 00:18:52,620 I didn't mean to be the the UFO Congress 457 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:54,059 is definitely The Breakfast Club of 458 00:19:01,789 --> 00:18:56,730 ethology you do have every sort of 459 00:19:04,460 --> 00:19:01,799 belief there and and type of person or 460 00:19:06,289 --> 00:19:04,470 topic it's it's interesting it's it's 461 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:06,299 definitely a cultural or a sociological 462 00:19:11,330 --> 00:19:08,730 study in itself I'm happy to hear you 463 00:19:13,909 --> 00:19:11,340 say she'll cost us she for a lot of 464 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:13,919 people who don't know she actually was 465 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:15,510 the focal point of an article that came 466 00:19:20,180 --> 00:19:17,730 out in the New York Times months before 467 00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:20,190 the New York Times quote-unquote you 468 00:19:25,159 --> 00:19:22,710 know bombshell broke with a tip and 469 00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:25,169 everything so we truly do have show 470 00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:27,720 acosta to thank for getting the topic 471 00:19:31,070 --> 00:19:29,070 out to the mainstream in the new york 472 00:19:33,919 --> 00:19:31,080 times months before that robbie graham 473 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:33,929 also i did contribute a chapter to that 474 00:19:37,580 --> 00:19:35,610 book reframing the debate and this is 475 00:19:41,149 --> 00:19:37,590 another instance where you have someone 476 00:19:43,610 --> 00:19:41,159 asking new questions of UFOs instead of 477 00:19:46,279 --> 00:19:43,620 like you said these documents that have 478 00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:46,289 been proven to be phony or hoaxes many 479 00:19:50,510 --> 00:19:48,049 many years ago yet people are still 480 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:50,520 touting these and sticking to their 481 00:19:54,889 --> 00:19:53,130 beliefs and it's tough it's tough when 482 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:54,899 you're dealing with people and their 483 00:19:59,960 --> 00:19:57,210 belief systems because we know even 484 00:20:01,700 --> 00:19:59,970 mostly in today's world yeah you're not 485 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:01,710 going to change many people's minds if 486 00:20:05,419 --> 00:20:02,970 they're passionate enough about 487 00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:05,429 something but to know that there are 488 00:20:10,279 --> 00:20:07,320 people out there like you not only 489 00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:10,289 studying the phenomenon but the people 490 00:20:15,330 --> 00:20:13,270 who follow it who believe in it 491 00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:15,340 I think it's very important we do have 492 00:20:20,790 --> 00:20:17,800 to put that mirror back on ourselves if 493 00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:20,800 we ever truly want answers and you did 494 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:24,820 mention a tip earlier and this kind of 495 00:20:29,610 --> 00:20:26,490 bleeds into chapter 2 of your book 496 00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:29,620 titled the black vault versus the rock 497 00:20:39,630 --> 00:20:35,980 star just get Whittier and Whittier is 498 00:20:42,090 --> 00:20:39,640 it go on but yeah you follow this all 499 00:20:44,010 --> 00:20:42,100 through throughout the first chapter 500 00:20:45,420 --> 00:20:44,020 through the lens of john greenwald 501 00:20:47,370 --> 00:20:45,430 the black vault a lot about really 502 00:20:50,370 --> 00:20:47,380 centers know him he's been on the show a 503 00:20:52,380 --> 00:20:50,380 few times he has the world's biggest you 504 00:20:54,770 --> 00:20:52,390 know database of declassified documents 505 00:20:57,570 --> 00:20:54,780 for the government pertaining to ufos 506 00:21:00,000 --> 00:20:57,580 other top-secret projects everything you 507 00:21:02,820 --> 00:21:00,010 could possibly think of so what was your 508 00:21:06,510 --> 00:21:02,830 biggest takeaway I guess when it comes 509 00:21:09,210 --> 00:21:06,520 to this narrative that TTS a to the 510 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:09,220 Stars Academy seems to be pushing and 511 00:21:14,790 --> 00:21:11,530 the company they've created when it 512 00:21:16,860 --> 00:21:14,800 comes to UFOs yeah I I struggled a lot 513 00:21:20,190 --> 00:21:16,870 with this chapter actually because there 514 00:21:23,250 --> 00:21:20,200 were so many ups and downs and changes 515 00:21:25,230 --> 00:21:23,260 and contradictions and spin from all 516 00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:25,240 sides like even as I was writing it and 517 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:26,710 up to the very last minute before it 518 00:21:31,890 --> 00:21:29,530 went to the printer that just trying to 519 00:21:34,970 --> 00:21:31,900 get the a tip story and the TTS a story 520 00:21:37,770 --> 00:21:34,980 just down in a comprehensive way for a 521 00:21:41,010 --> 00:21:37,780 general person who isn't familiar with 522 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:41,020 any of this probably it was really hard 523 00:21:46,670 --> 00:21:42,970 and actually that ended up being my 524 00:21:49,710 --> 00:21:46,680 biggest takeaway was that that it's 525 00:21:54,150 --> 00:21:49,720 complicated and confusing and that I 526 00:21:56,130 --> 00:21:54,160 think that that is on purpose so so TTS 527 00:21:59,070 --> 00:21:56,140 a right now is kind of pushing the 528 00:22:01,350 --> 00:21:59,080 narrative you know you IPS are here 529 00:22:02,850 --> 00:22:01,360 they're a national security threat here 530 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:02,860 are these videos we've been studying 531 00:22:07,610 --> 00:22:05,770 them and the the government was so 532 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:07,620 dismissive of them that we've had to go 533 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:10,090 to the private sector and bring this 534 00:22:15,150 --> 00:22:12,730 information to you through this company 535 00:22:19,050 --> 00:22:15,160 that also publishes you know books and 536 00:22:21,810 --> 00:22:19,060 movies and music and they they give 537 00:22:23,670 --> 00:22:21,820 everybody like just enough evidence to 538 00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:23,680 believe whatever they already want to 539 00:22:26,620 --> 00:22:25,270 believe and not enough evidence to 540 00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:26,630 actually prove anything 541 00:22:30,790 --> 00:22:28,640 finit of one way or the other a lot of 542 00:22:32,020 --> 00:22:30,800 people will probably disagree with me 543 00:22:34,570 --> 00:22:32,030 about that but that's that's where I 544 00:22:37,930 --> 00:22:34,580 stand on it and then on the other hand 545 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:37,940 the the Pentagon is in a lot of ways 546 00:22:42,910 --> 00:22:40,970 doing this a similar thing 547 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:42,920 they've gone back and forth changed 548 00:22:48,910 --> 00:22:45,170 their story given confusing statements 549 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:48,920 been cagey about the UAP videos where 550 00:22:53,860 --> 00:22:51,410 they come from and it's it's just kind 551 00:22:55,810 --> 00:22:53,870 of impossible for the third not just the 552 00:22:59,800 --> 00:22:55,820 average person but for people who 553 00:23:02,590 --> 00:22:59,810 actually investigate UFOs full-time or 554 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:02,600 as is really serious hobby to know from 555 00:23:07,210 --> 00:23:04,450 the outside what's actually going on and 556 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:07,220 so I guess my main conclusion was that 557 00:23:12,670 --> 00:23:10,250 it must be in everybody's interests on 558 00:23:14,290 --> 00:23:12,680 all sides somehow to only provide 559 00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:14,300 limited information and kind of let 560 00:23:19,870 --> 00:23:16,910 people run with whatever interpretation 561 00:23:22,450 --> 00:23:19,880 that they already kind of like and I 562 00:23:24,340 --> 00:23:22,460 think if anyone is on UFO Twitter they 563 00:23:29,140 --> 00:23:24,350 see that happen basically every single 564 00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:29,150 day there yeah as with any I guess you 565 00:23:34,660 --> 00:23:32,150 know subculture community we if we have 566 00:23:37,750 --> 00:23:34,670 our our squabbles that's for damn sure 567 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:37,760 um well yeah I mean moving moving away 568 00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:39,770 from that and kind of um you mentioned 569 00:23:45,010 --> 00:23:42,080 the Pentagon no chapter three the 570 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:45,020 government's closet this stuff is deep 571 00:23:48,460 --> 00:23:47,090 into the government's roi and UFO 572 00:23:50,290 --> 00:23:48,470 studies and investigation you know 573 00:23:51,850 --> 00:23:50,300 covering everything from projects I 574 00:23:53,710 --> 00:23:51,860 encourage Blue Book all these things 575 00:23:59,530 --> 00:23:53,720 that all of us in the UFO field know 576 00:24:02,680 --> 00:23:59,540 probably too much about but it resulted 577 00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:02,690 in the Condon committee reports and this 578 00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:04,910 was pretty interesting the government 579 00:24:09,010 --> 00:24:07,790 flat-out came out and said UFOs posed no 580 00:24:10,510 --> 00:24:09,020 threat to national security 581 00:24:13,810 --> 00:24:10,520 which kind of goes against everything a 582 00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:13,820 tip is saying now and there's no true 583 00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:15,830 scientific examination that could be 584 00:24:20,620 --> 00:24:18,710 done any further with it so this left a 585 00:24:24,010 --> 00:24:20,630 lot of UFO people out there not 586 00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:24,020 believing the government and starting to 587 00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:25,760 really mistrust the government I would 588 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:27,710 say this is one of the first times we 589 00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:30,530 really saw this happen when we we 590 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:32,150 started to lose trust in the people who 591 00:24:37,060 --> 00:24:34,850 govern us so how did you feel after 592 00:24:40,450 --> 00:24:37,070 looking deeper into how the government 593 00:24:42,930 --> 00:24:40,460 itself this all-encompassing 594 00:24:45,970 --> 00:24:42,940 government does it were a capital G and 595 00:24:47,410 --> 00:24:45,980 doing the UFO issue and how they've 596 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:47,420 handled it throughout the years I guess 597 00:24:50,770 --> 00:24:49,250 yeah it's funny that you say the 598 00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:50,780 government capital G because I've been 599 00:24:54,430 --> 00:24:52,670 saying it a lot now that I'm talking 600 00:24:57,250 --> 00:24:54,440 about the book and it makes me feel like 601 00:24:58,600 --> 00:24:57,260 I am a conspiracy theorist on the 602 00:24:59,740 --> 00:24:58,610 sidewalk spouting things about the 603 00:25:03,400 --> 00:24:59,750 government but if there's really no 604 00:25:05,890 --> 00:25:03,410 other way to say it yeah yeah I came 605 00:25:09,130 --> 00:25:05,900 away with the impression that it's it's 606 00:25:11,020 --> 00:25:09,140 really reasonable for UFO buffs to to 607 00:25:13,780 --> 00:25:11,030 not trust the government because in the 608 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:13,790 past it's really proven itself to be 609 00:25:19,890 --> 00:25:17,050 pretty unreliable and not transparent 610 00:25:22,570 --> 00:25:19,900 about the subject I think there's a CIA 611 00:25:24,550 --> 00:25:22,580 historian whose report I quote in the 612 00:25:27,490 --> 00:25:24,560 chapter who says something like that the 613 00:25:29,890 --> 00:25:27,500 the way the the CIA and other agencies 614 00:25:33,060 --> 00:25:29,900 behaved kind of in the mid 20th century 615 00:25:36,190 --> 00:25:33,070 really sowed the seeds of mistrust by 616 00:25:39,250 --> 00:25:36,200 kind of conducting UFO programs in bad 617 00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:39,260 faith keeping a lot of information from 618 00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:41,120 the public like it's it's studies on the 619 00:25:49,030 --> 00:25:45,200 psychological impacts of UFO slaps and 620 00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:49,040 things like that and then you know 621 00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:51,440 things like Roswell which I think we 622 00:25:58,960 --> 00:25:53,840 might talk about later but you know 623 00:26:01,870 --> 00:25:58,970 spreading bad information and in in John 624 00:26:04,570 --> 00:26:01,880 Greenwald's book that came out fairly 625 00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:04,580 recently he documents really well with 626 00:26:09,010 --> 00:26:06,830 archival materials ways that the you 627 00:26:12,370 --> 00:26:09,020 that the government has covered up 628 00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:12,380 information about UFOs and its interest 629 00:26:16,450 --> 00:26:14,960 in them more specifically and so for me 630 00:26:18,820 --> 00:26:16,460 that I mean that kind of gives us no 631 00:26:20,380 --> 00:26:18,830 reason to think it wouldn't be doing the 632 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:20,390 same thing now like if we know one thing 633 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:22,370 about the way people and governments 634 00:26:25,810 --> 00:26:24,650 behave it's that mostly you know past as 635 00:26:28,210 --> 00:26:25,820 present and if they did it before 636 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:28,220 they're probably doing it now so I mean 637 00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:29,930 I guess do I think that in itself is 638 00:26:35,650 --> 00:26:31,760 evidence that the you know they have an 639 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:35,660 alien spaceship in area 51 no but I 640 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:39,050 think the the capital G government is 641 00:26:44,140 --> 00:26:42,290 secretive about a lot of things you know 642 00:26:46,450 --> 00:26:44,150 if you talk to you national security 643 00:26:48,130 --> 00:26:46,460 specialists or people in the military 644 00:26:50,590 --> 00:26:48,140 and intelligence communities they'll 645 00:26:51,970 --> 00:26:50,600 talk a lot about over-classification and 646 00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:51,980 just that anything that could be a 647 00:26:57,100 --> 00:26:54,470 little tiny bit secret will be 648 00:27:00,279 --> 00:26:57,110 classified and that it doesn't actually 649 00:27:03,669 --> 00:27:00,289 need to be so to me a lot of this could 650 00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:03,679 just be the government acting the way it 651 00:27:08,130 --> 00:27:06,080 always does so it's hard to draw any 652 00:27:10,299 --> 00:27:08,140 conclusions from that in my opinion 653 00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:10,309 absolutely yeah some things never change 654 00:27:15,730 --> 00:27:13,190 and yeah and we have to stress you know 655 00:27:18,610 --> 00:27:15,740 when we say government the government is 656 00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:18,620 made up of many many people with 657 00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:20,809 different belief systems different 658 00:27:25,450 --> 00:27:23,510 agendas motives so we got to keep that 659 00:27:26,980 --> 00:27:25,460 in mind to when we say when is the 660 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:26,990 government going to disclose the truth 661 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:30,890 about UFOs well what does that mean we 662 00:27:35,139 --> 00:27:33,049 see it as this you know umbrella dark 663 00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:35,149 syndicate like the x-files would have us 664 00:27:40,510 --> 00:27:38,360 believe but um no it's just a poorly run 665 00:27:42,669 --> 00:27:40,520 bureaucratic thing like most things out 666 00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:42,679 there so yeah actually when I talk to 667 00:27:46,539 --> 00:27:44,720 friends who work in like the aerospace 668 00:27:48,220 --> 00:27:46,549 parts of government and I say hey here's 669 00:27:50,409 --> 00:27:48,230 here's my crazy idea do you think that 670 00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:50,419 this is the thing that's going on they 671 00:27:54,399 --> 00:27:52,070 they kind of say like it would be really 672 00:27:56,110 --> 00:27:54,409 cool if we had that the capability to 673 00:27:58,960 --> 00:27:56,120 pull something like that off but our 674 00:28:00,190 --> 00:27:58,970 bureaucracy is just as much of a mess as 675 00:28:02,580 --> 00:28:00,200 anything else and we're too disorganized 676 00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:02,590 to have a cool project like that yeah 677 00:28:10,180 --> 00:28:08,870 right hey y'all Ryan Sprague here as you 678 00:28:13,180 --> 00:28:10,190 all know this somewhere in the skies 679 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:13,190 podcast is always free to consume but it 680 00:28:17,139 --> 00:28:15,770 isn't free to create that's why I've 681 00:28:19,870 --> 00:28:17,149 started this somewhere in the skies 682 00:28:21,850 --> 00:28:19,880 patreon campaign you on a monthly basis 683 00:28:23,590 --> 00:28:21,860 you give what you think the show is 684 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:23,600 worth you'll be helping the show 685 00:28:29,019 --> 00:28:26,330 continue grow and to be something truly 686 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:29,029 communal and remember there are rewards 687 00:28:34,269 --> 00:28:31,610 for each level of contribution and the 688 00:28:36,669 --> 00:28:34,279 list is only grown so please help 689 00:28:39,010 --> 00:28:36,679 somewhere in the skies now by becoming a 690 00:28:49,610 --> 00:28:39,020 patron to contribute and to learn more 691 00:28:55,159 --> 00:28:52,250 well maybe the sort of organizations 692 00:28:59,210 --> 00:28:55,169 your chapter four title the patron saint 693 00:29:01,519 --> 00:28:59,220 or something of UFOs this is a guy we 694 00:29:04,340 --> 00:29:01,529 know very well in the field we call him 695 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:04,350 big Bobby Bigelow but well we'll talk 696 00:29:08,779 --> 00:29:06,210 about him in his real name here Robert 697 00:29:11,630 --> 00:29:08,789 Bigelow and his connection to UFOs and 698 00:29:13,610 --> 00:29:11,640 also the mysterious skinwalker ranch so 699 00:29:15,380 --> 00:29:13,620 you kinda in this chapter cover 700 00:29:18,019 --> 00:29:15,390 everything this guy's been involved with 701 00:29:20,330 --> 00:29:18,029 and when it comes to the worlds we study 702 00:29:21,889 --> 00:29:20,340 on a day to day basis so would you mind 703 00:29:23,539 --> 00:29:21,899 maybe running us through a little of 704 00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:23,549 what compelled you to write about this 705 00:29:27,950 --> 00:29:25,529 whole affair and what your personal 706 00:29:30,289 --> 00:29:27,960 experience was driving up to the 707 00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:30,299 skinwalker ranch this is crazy 708 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:34,860 yeah actually like a year or two before 709 00:29:40,190 --> 00:29:38,490 all of this happened just because one of 710 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:40,200 his inflatable space modules from 711 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:42,090 Bigelow Aerospace was going to the the 712 00:29:47,029 --> 00:29:44,370 International Space Station and I just 713 00:29:48,889 --> 00:29:47,039 wrote a news story about that and when I 714 00:29:50,690 --> 00:29:48,899 was doing that my editor said you should 715 00:29:52,250 --> 00:29:50,700 read this this feature story that 716 00:29:54,649 --> 00:29:52,260 someone wrote a few years ago kind of 717 00:29:56,690 --> 00:29:54,659 profiling Robert Bigelow and that's that 718 00:29:59,899 --> 00:29:56,700 is when I learned about his interest in 719 00:30:01,610 --> 00:29:59,909 in UFOs do you believe in aliens I am 720 00:30:04,519 --> 00:30:01,620 absolutely convinced that's all there is 721 00:30:06,710 --> 00:30:04,529 to it do you also believe that UFOs have 722 00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:06,720 come to earth there has been an is an 723 00:30:10,940 --> 00:30:09,360 existing presence in eating presses and 724 00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:10,950 I spent millions and millions I probably 725 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:13,440 spent more as an individual than anybody 726 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:15,450 else in United States has ever spent on 727 00:30:20,029 --> 00:30:17,970 this subject is it risky for you to say 728 00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:20,039 you know in public that you believe I 729 00:30:23,930 --> 00:30:21,510 don't give you an ozonator 730 00:30:25,549 --> 00:30:23,940 I don't care you don't worry that some 731 00:30:27,980 --> 00:30:25,559 people will say did you hear that guy 732 00:30:28,370 --> 00:30:27,990 sounds like he's crazy I don't care why 733 00:30:36,169 --> 00:30:28,380 not 734 00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:36,179 do you imagine that in our space travels 735 00:30:40,490 --> 00:30:38,399 we will encounter other forms of 736 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:40,500 intelligent life you don't have to go 737 00:30:45,740 --> 00:30:44,250 anywhere you can find it here yeah but I 738 00:30:48,380 --> 00:30:45,750 didn't I didn't really think about it 739 00:30:49,970 --> 00:30:48,390 anymore right away after that I just 740 00:30:52,820 --> 00:30:49,980 thought oh you know another eccentric 741 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:52,830 billionaire big deal and then I started 742 00:30:57,919 --> 00:30:56,130 doing this UFO reporting and pretty 743 00:31:00,680 --> 00:30:57,929 quickly I ran across an article that 744 00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:00,690 noted skeptic Robert Shafer wrote called 745 00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:02,640 I think it was called Bigelow saucer 746 00:31:06,590 --> 00:31:04,110 Emporium 747 00:31:09,229 --> 00:31:06,600 and it just kind of laid out all of the 748 00:31:11,299 --> 00:31:09,239 different initiatives that Bigelow had 749 00:31:13,389 --> 00:31:11,309 funded over the years and all of the 750 00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:13,399 different research programs and 751 00:31:18,739 --> 00:31:15,960 investigation collaborations that he had 752 00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:18,749 had his hands in and I thought wow I had 753 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:21,360 no idea this guy was so pervasive in the 754 00:31:27,619 --> 00:31:23,129 field and so I started trying to look at 755 00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:27,629 those connections myself and and that 756 00:31:32,210 --> 00:31:29,600 was when I learned more about his 757 00:31:34,669 --> 00:31:32,220 paranormal research group the National 758 00:31:37,489 --> 00:31:34,679 Institute for discovery science knits 759 00:31:39,739 --> 00:31:37,499 and then I learned more about skinwalker 760 00:31:41,509 --> 00:31:39,749 ranch in anyway what happened was 761 00:31:44,389 --> 00:31:41,519 actually not that far from the time when 762 00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:44,399 I went to the UFO Congress I had a free 763 00:31:48,499 --> 00:31:46,080 weekend and I kind of lived within a 764 00:31:50,419 --> 00:31:48,509 long day's Drive of the ranch so I 765 00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:50,429 thought you know what what the hell 766 00:31:56,060 --> 00:31:52,529 let's go see what this let's go see what 767 00:31:58,159 --> 00:31:56,070 this place is about and so I mean this 768 00:32:00,619 --> 00:31:58,169 story for people don't know is that this 769 00:32:03,499 --> 00:32:00,629 is kind of a hotbed of paranormal and 770 00:32:05,570 --> 00:32:03,509 UFO activity and Bigelow bought this 771 00:32:07,310 --> 00:32:05,580 ranch to do some kind of systematic 772 00:32:09,739 --> 00:32:07,320 investigation of what was going on there 773 00:32:12,109 --> 00:32:09,749 and you know I didn't expect to see 774 00:32:14,779 --> 00:32:12,119 anything when I went out there not not 775 00:32:16,669 --> 00:32:14,789 just because I was dubious about the the 776 00:32:18,019 --> 00:32:16,679 supposed to vent but also because I was 777 00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:18,029 only going to be there for a night and 778 00:32:22,159 --> 00:32:19,440 what what are the chances that you'll 779 00:32:24,139 --> 00:32:22,169 see anything on any given night I just 780 00:32:26,659 --> 00:32:24,149 kind of wanted to get a sense of the 781 00:32:30,289 --> 00:32:26,669 sense of the place so on the way out 782 00:32:31,909 --> 00:32:30,299 there I listened to the audio book hunt 783 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:31,919 for the skinwalker which kind of 784 00:32:38,169 --> 00:32:36,690 detailed his attempt to to do the 785 00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:38,179 scientific research on these 786 00:32:43,879 --> 00:32:42,480 traditionally unscientific topics and my 787 00:32:45,289 --> 00:32:43,889 main takeaway was like these are very 788 00:32:46,999 --> 00:32:45,299 interesting stories but none of these 789 00:32:49,549 --> 00:32:47,009 people after all this effort were able 790 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:49,559 to get any evidence and the conclusion 791 00:32:54,379 --> 00:32:52,049 was this phenomenon is slippery and we 792 00:32:58,039 --> 00:32:54,389 won't be able to find it and I didn't 793 00:33:00,649 --> 00:32:58,049 find that to be very compelling but 794 00:33:03,109 --> 00:33:00,659 anyway I drove out there and just kind 795 00:33:06,379 --> 00:33:03,119 of waited hung out it hung out at the 796 00:33:08,479 --> 00:33:06,389 gate saw the security no guys with guns 797 00:33:11,570 --> 00:33:08,489 this time just a big camera and some 798 00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:11,580 gates but and then stood on a spot 799 00:33:17,140 --> 00:33:13,200 overlooking the branch for a few hours 800 00:33:20,810 --> 00:33:17,150 and waited for something to happen and 801 00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:20,820 - yes yeah have you been out there I 802 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:24,000 have been in the area once or twice but 803 00:33:28,250 --> 00:33:26,610 I also have never had an experience out 804 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:28,260 there but you know what that's kind of 805 00:33:32,510 --> 00:33:29,910 how it goes sometimes when you seek 806 00:33:35,180 --> 00:33:32,520 these things out that's the time that 807 00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:35,190 they don't show themselves that and when 808 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:36,510 I say they I have absolutely no idea 809 00:33:40,790 --> 00:33:38,130 what I'm actually saying because we 810 00:33:42,590 --> 00:33:40,800 don't know what's going on or all the 811 00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:42,600 government leads the government let's go 812 00:33:46,610 --> 00:33:44,880 back to that capital G as you feel but 813 00:33:49,940 --> 00:33:46,620 yeah some really interesting ties 814 00:33:51,860 --> 00:33:49,950 between Bigelow and skinwalker ranch and 815 00:33:54,650 --> 00:33:51,870 a tip and everything that we're now 816 00:33:58,250 --> 00:33:54,660 really starting to connect the dots with 817 00:34:01,070 --> 00:33:58,260 but um you also in Chapter five you 818 00:34:04,850 --> 00:34:01,080 return to something that all of us know 819 00:34:06,110 --> 00:34:04,860 about and that is MUFON and for anyone 820 00:34:08,330 --> 00:34:06,120 who has listened to my show I've been 821 00:34:11,180 --> 00:34:08,340 very honest and vocal about my opinions 822 00:34:13,879 --> 00:34:11,190 on move on but it seemed like you had a 823 00:34:16,430 --> 00:34:13,889 rather positive experience with one or 824 00:34:18,490 --> 00:34:16,440 several of the field investigators which 825 00:34:22,490 --> 00:34:18,500 I've experienced as well there's many 826 00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:22,500 amazing people within MUFON but as an 827 00:34:27,860 --> 00:34:24,720 organization it has its problems as many 828 00:34:29,149 --> 00:34:27,870 volunteer organizations do but could you 829 00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:29,159 maybe tell us a little about your 830 00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:31,830 thoughts on organizations like this like 831 00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:35,040 MUFON civilian run groups who who 832 00:34:39,649 --> 00:34:37,470 investigate UFOs what was it like going 833 00:34:42,169 --> 00:34:39,659 into the whole new fun part of all this 834 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:42,179 yeah I started out actually my plan was 835 00:34:46,879 --> 00:34:43,770 to go get certified as a field 836 00:34:49,340 --> 00:34:46,889 investigator myself and see what that 837 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:49,350 was like but I talked to the I met up 838 00:34:53,540 --> 00:34:51,450 with the director of the Colorado 839 00:34:55,399 --> 00:34:53,550 chapter and he was like don't do that 840 00:34:57,860 --> 00:34:55,409 it's too much effort it's too much money 841 00:34:59,870 --> 00:34:57,870 you should just you know follow us 842 00:35:02,810 --> 00:34:59,880 around a little bit and so I took his 843 00:35:04,370 --> 00:35:02,820 advice and so I hung out with him some 844 00:35:06,620 --> 00:35:04,380 and then another another of their field 845 00:35:08,990 --> 00:35:06,630 investigators named Katie Grabovski and 846 00:35:11,210 --> 00:35:09,000 I kind of felt like like any big 847 00:35:13,490 --> 00:35:11,220 organization and especially like you 848 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:13,500 mentioned a volunteer organization you 849 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:16,290 know MUFON contains multitudes it 850 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:19,050 certainly has its problems at the top 851 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:21,930 and has had its share of scandals but I 852 00:35:25,430 --> 00:35:23,610 was mostly interacting with people at 853 00:35:27,860 --> 00:35:25,440 the local level like going to the the 854 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:27,870 chapter meetings and and meeting with 855 00:35:30,650 --> 00:35:30,210 people one-on-one and I found everyone I 856 00:35:32,809 --> 00:35:30,660 met 857 00:35:35,029 --> 00:35:32,819 to be you know really genuine and and 858 00:35:37,819 --> 00:35:35,039 kind and dedicated to what they were 859 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:37,829 what they were doing and the the 860 00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:41,450 meanings to me you know they they had 861 00:35:46,969 --> 00:35:43,680 presentations about research that people 862 00:35:49,489 --> 00:35:46,979 were doing but they also had a time for 863 00:35:51,319 --> 00:35:49,499 people to share their own experiences 864 00:35:54,380 --> 00:35:51,329 and ask questions of each other and I 865 00:35:57,559 --> 00:35:54,390 kind of came to see it as like a little 866 00:35:58,969 --> 00:35:57,569 bit like group group therapy in a good 867 00:36:01,880 --> 00:35:58,979 way where it's just like here's a space 868 00:36:04,249 --> 00:36:01,890 where people who have had incredible 869 00:36:06,410 --> 00:36:04,259 experiences can share them in a way that 870 00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:06,420 they maybe couldn't with people outside 871 00:36:13,609 --> 00:36:09,839 who wouldn't understand and so I I came 872 00:36:15,529 --> 00:36:13,619 to see it was valuable that way the 873 00:36:17,529 --> 00:36:15,539 question though is you know is that 874 00:36:19,759 --> 00:36:17,539 scientific are the investigations 875 00:36:24,410 --> 00:36:19,769 scientific which is a totally different 876 00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:24,420 question and for that I talked to James 877 00:36:31,249 --> 00:36:26,910 carrion who was a former director at 878 00:36:32,229 --> 00:36:31,259 MUFON and he pointed out to me a lot of 879 00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:32,239 the ways that you know field 880 00:36:36,469 --> 00:36:34,710 investigations were kind of uneven and 881 00:36:38,599 --> 00:36:36,479 how rigorous they were and that was 882 00:36:40,430 --> 00:36:38,609 something he tried to to fix by 883 00:36:42,469 --> 00:36:40,440 standardizing protocols and things like 884 00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:42,479 that and then he talked about how 885 00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:44,640 confirmation bias sometimes gets in the 886 00:36:49,849 --> 00:36:46,710 way because people usually join MUFON 887 00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:49,859 because they they're interested in UFOs 888 00:36:53,930 --> 00:36:51,839 and a lot of people come with you know 889 00:36:58,249 --> 00:36:53,940 preconceived notions of what they are 890 00:37:00,890 --> 00:36:58,259 and so those are some problems and as 891 00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:00,900 far as civilian run organizations in 892 00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:02,880 general I mean I feel like ufology 893 00:37:07,219 --> 00:37:05,400 really has no choice because it's 894 00:37:09,499 --> 00:37:07,229 outside of it's outside of mainstream 895 00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:09,509 academic science and so it makes sense 896 00:37:13,459 --> 00:37:12,089 that people who lay people who are 897 00:37:15,049 --> 00:37:13,469 interested in it would go do this 898 00:37:16,339 --> 00:37:15,059 investigation themselves because no-one 899 00:37:18,890 --> 00:37:16,349 else is doing that 900 00:37:20,779 --> 00:37:18,900 but there is a reason that you know 901 00:37:23,749 --> 00:37:20,789 people go to ten years of school after 902 00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:23,759 high school and then to postdocs and and 903 00:37:26,299 --> 00:37:24,960 whatever before they're full-fledged 904 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:26,309 scientists and it's because they're 905 00:37:29,779 --> 00:37:27,930 there are things you learned about 906 00:37:31,489 --> 00:37:29,789 dealing with evidence and critical 907 00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:31,499 analysis and stuff that it's it's not 908 00:37:35,539 --> 00:37:33,089 impossible to get from the outside but 909 00:37:37,039 --> 00:37:35,549 it but it's hard and so but I don't I 910 00:37:39,019 --> 00:37:37,049 don't know what other option there is 911 00:37:41,660 --> 00:37:39,029 yeah you know it is one of those things 912 00:37:43,249 --> 00:37:41,670 where the UFO quote-unquote UFO 913 00:37:43,790 --> 00:37:43,259 community had to take things into their 914 00:37:45,470 --> 00:37:43,800 own head 915 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:45,480 a lot of scientists weren't gonna take 916 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:47,610 it seriously we had to do it ourselves 917 00:37:52,190 --> 00:37:49,650 and like you said that's when you get 918 00:37:55,820 --> 00:37:52,200 the the scrappy passionate people with 919 00:37:58,190 --> 00:37:55,830 all different belief systems and you 920 00:38:00,350 --> 00:37:58,200 know baggage and again it's gonna be a 921 00:38:02,780 --> 00:38:00,360 mixture of of something that you can't 922 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:02,790 really narrow in on and have one way of 923 00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:06,330 doing it yes MUFON has a a manual as to 924 00:38:11,060 --> 00:38:08,580 how to investigate but you know I mean 925 00:38:13,790 --> 00:38:11,070 that's gonna change from case to case 926 00:38:16,220 --> 00:38:13,800 and whoever is investigating itself it 927 00:38:18,770 --> 00:38:16,230 is it's it's it's an interesting sort of 928 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:18,780 facet to the entire UFO subculture are 929 00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:22,170 these civilian run UFO groups I don't 930 00:38:27,410 --> 00:38:25,440 know if they will ever solve the UFO 931 00:38:29,930 --> 00:38:27,420 mystery or even be a big part of that 932 00:38:32,090 --> 00:38:29,940 but they have tried and they continue to 933 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:32,100 try so I guess we can only wish them 934 00:38:37,340 --> 00:38:34,290 luck and hopefully they will find those 935 00:38:39,470 --> 00:38:37,350 answers they're looking for but you you 936 00:38:42,740 --> 00:38:39,480 went on the road in the next chapter 937 00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:42,750 Sara to the odd on the et Highway and 938 00:38:48,650 --> 00:38:44,310 this is at area 51 939 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:48,660 no all of us know the area 51 mythos Bob 940 00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:52,530 Lazar nine saucers all this stuff but um 941 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:54,240 you went out there yourself 942 00:38:58,430 --> 00:38:55,770 you know you again boots on the ground 943 00:38:59,930 --> 00:38:58,440 you got out there to actually look at 944 00:39:02,360 --> 00:38:59,940 this stuff and you've had some pretty 945 00:39:04,670 --> 00:39:02,370 interesting experiences so what really 946 00:39:06,980 --> 00:39:04,680 resonated with your trip out there and 947 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:06,990 what do you make of the whole area 51 948 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:09,330 site and all the stories behind it yeah 949 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:12,330 I I loved going to area 51 I want to go 950 00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:13,410 there all the time 951 00:39:18,530 --> 00:39:16,350 now when I I went out there with my 952 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:18,540 sister and and a friend and kind of as 953 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:21,450 soon as we pulled into the area we 954 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:24,210 started seeing what we later found out 955 00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:26,490 were flare exercises but just these like 956 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:28,710 hovering orbs in the sky and weird 957 00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:30,690 shapes and it was just it was really 958 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:32,730 thrilling even though I thought there 959 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:34,890 was a conventional explanation to be 960 00:39:38,630 --> 00:39:36,690 like I'm seeing I'm something I'm not 961 00:39:40,970 --> 00:39:38,640 supposed to see and it looks really cool 962 00:39:43,130 --> 00:39:40,980 and it looks like a flying saucer and 963 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:43,140 you know after that later in the night 964 00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:46,770 we saw like kind of a quarter of the sky 965 00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:49,920 was taken up by this big matrix of just 966 00:39:55,340 --> 00:39:52,800 white dots that kind of all moved in 967 00:39:57,620 --> 00:39:55,350 unison and we never found out what those 968 00:39:59,809 --> 00:39:57,630 were we had the guards come and try 969 00:40:02,690 --> 00:39:59,819 intimidate us we went up to all the 970 00:40:06,589 --> 00:40:02,700 gates and I guess what was compelling to 971 00:40:08,359 --> 00:40:06,599 me about all of it is just like I said 972 00:40:10,430 --> 00:40:08,369 seeing something you're not supposed to 973 00:40:12,349 --> 00:40:10,440 see and the whole area has this aura 974 00:40:14,690 --> 00:40:12,359 that it's hiding something from you 975 00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:14,700 which it is and it made me understand 976 00:40:20,029 --> 00:40:18,240 why people keep going back there which I 977 00:40:21,710 --> 00:40:20,039 think at least if they're anything like 978 00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:21,720 me was to just catch a glimpse of 979 00:40:25,579 --> 00:40:24,000 something really mysterious and secret 980 00:40:27,259 --> 00:40:25,589 whatever you think that secret is if you 981 00:40:30,259 --> 00:40:27,269 think it's reverse engineering a 982 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:30,269 spaceship or classified technology we'd 983 00:40:35,150 --> 00:40:32,250 like to fly over Russia like no matter 984 00:40:37,779 --> 00:40:35,160 what it's mysterious and you know I 985 00:40:41,660 --> 00:40:37,789 don't find the bob was our story very 986 00:40:43,609 --> 00:40:41,670 convincing myself but what I did learn 987 00:40:44,990 --> 00:40:43,619 out there is you know if you go you 988 00:40:47,900 --> 00:40:45,000 might see something and it would be 989 00:40:50,930 --> 00:40:47,910 really cool and if you're if you're into 990 00:40:52,700 --> 00:40:50,940 the alien hypothesis then you're likely 991 00:40:54,620 --> 00:40:52,710 to interpret it through that kind of 992 00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:54,630 lens and if not I don't know I think 993 00:40:58,579 --> 00:40:56,880 classified military technology being 994 00:40:59,029 --> 00:40:58,589 tested in front of your eyes is pretty 995 00:41:01,730 --> 00:40:59,039 cool 996 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:01,740 and so yeah I need another road trip I 997 00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:03,930 did go down for the storm area 51 event 998 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:07,200 - although that's not the movie I got 999 00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:11,250 asked what was that experience there so 1000 00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:13,440 you're one of those to survive and tell 1001 00:41:15,950 --> 00:41:14,160 the story 1002 00:41:21,609 --> 00:41:15,960 yeah when all the way inside learned all 1003 00:41:27,079 --> 00:41:24,349 no it was it was it was fun you know it 1004 00:41:29,779 --> 00:41:27,089 was a it was more of a festival than 1005 00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:29,789 anything else and it was one of the few 1006 00:41:33,170 --> 00:41:31,680 places I've been recently where I was 1007 00:41:36,109 --> 00:41:33,180 one of the oldest people there even 1008 00:41:38,690 --> 00:41:36,119 though I'm not very old and it was a lot 1009 00:41:40,730 --> 00:41:38,700 a lot of young people filming and taking 1010 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:40,740 pictures of themselves to put on the 1011 00:41:45,620 --> 00:41:43,410 Internet of being at area 51 which is in 1012 00:41:48,740 --> 00:41:45,630 keeping with the origin of the event as 1013 00:41:51,380 --> 00:41:48,750 a facebook joke but it was actually it 1014 00:41:53,509 --> 00:41:51,390 was actually pretty cool they had police 1015 00:41:55,789 --> 00:41:53,519 from all over kind of all over the West 1016 00:41:56,990 --> 00:41:55,799 come out and actually they were I think 1017 00:41:58,069 --> 00:41:57,000 they were trying to keep it low-key 1018 00:41:59,870 --> 00:41:58,079 because they would have kind of 1019 00:42:01,999 --> 00:41:59,880 encouraged people to go right up to the 1020 00:42:03,380 --> 00:42:02,009 gate and just make chitchat and I think 1021 00:42:04,999 --> 00:42:03,390 they were trying to make it seem not 1022 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:05,009 mysterious so that people wouldn't do 1023 00:42:09,410 --> 00:42:07,650 anything crazy I had a good time yeah 1024 00:42:10,940 --> 00:42:09,420 and you know what if that's what 1025 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:10,950 everyone took hermit just a good time 1026 00:42:13,340 --> 00:42:11,490 out and 1027 00:42:15,830 --> 00:42:13,350 that's all you can really ask for 1028 00:42:17,570 --> 00:42:15,840 whether it moved the needle in terms of 1029 00:42:19,850 --> 00:42:17,580 like you know the public's perception of 1030 00:42:21,230 --> 00:42:19,860 area 51 probably not because we probably 1031 00:42:24,500 --> 00:42:21,240 will never know what's going on inside 1032 00:42:26,770 --> 00:42:24,510 there but it is a mysterious place and 1033 00:42:29,330 --> 00:42:26,780 I'm sure there's some pretty cool 1034 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:29,340 classified stuff going on there and I 1035 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:31,890 always tell people you know yes we want 1036 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:34,530 answers and we want to know the truth 1037 00:42:39,170 --> 00:42:37,050 about what's there but end of the day 1038 00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:39,180 it's there for probably our national 1039 00:42:43,940 --> 00:42:41,520 security purposes and I am NOT someone 1040 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:43,950 who would say go storm that gate and see 1041 00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:45,930 what's going on because it's secret for 1042 00:42:50,450 --> 00:42:48,240 a reason well okay so we move on to 1043 00:42:53,150 --> 00:42:50,460 chapter seven in the book the moguls of 1044 00:42:56,990 --> 00:42:53,160 Roswell New Mexico the mother lode of 1045 00:43:01,010 --> 00:42:57,000 UFOs Roswell again you went out to 1046 00:43:03,170 --> 00:43:01,020 Roswell to do this chapter and you cover 1047 00:43:05,690 --> 00:43:03,180 the entire mythos surrounding the town 1048 00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:05,700 the stories that have arisen throughout 1049 00:43:09,830 --> 00:43:07,710 the years some were pretty credible 1050 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:09,840 others not so much I'd say in terms of 1051 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:11,970 what they contributed to the overall UFO 1052 00:43:16,190 --> 00:43:14,130 conversation but what did you welcome we 1053 00:43:18,890 --> 00:43:16,200 thinking of the entire Roswell affair 1054 00:43:21,380 --> 00:43:18,900 and its place in ufology I guess I 1055 00:43:23,750 --> 00:43:21,390 started out you know knowing very little 1056 00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:23,760 about Roswell other than what probably 1057 00:43:27,950 --> 00:43:25,350 people just in the general public know 1058 00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:27,960 and so when I started kind of going to 1059 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:29,910 the original source material what was 1060 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:32,010 honestly most amazing to me was how 1061 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:34,290 little there was at the origin of the 1062 00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:35,970 story and obviously you know people have 1063 00:43:39,470 --> 00:43:37,200 talked to witnesses who have come 1064 00:43:41,450 --> 00:43:39,480 forward since then but if we're talking 1065 00:43:43,730 --> 00:43:41,460 about just when it occurred there was 1066 00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:43,740 very little information and and there's 1067 00:43:50,180 --> 00:43:46,710 this whole complex that spawned from it 1068 00:43:53,300 --> 00:43:50,190 like Roswell is the alien town and it's 1069 00:43:55,340 --> 00:43:53,310 anonymous with with this crash and so it 1070 00:43:59,480 --> 00:43:55,350 was really just amazing to me how much 1071 00:44:00,980 --> 00:43:59,490 had come out of that and what really put 1072 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:00,990 it in perspective for me was reading 1073 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:03,210 this book that to anthropologists and a 1074 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:06,570 physicist wrote analyzing the mutation 1075 00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:08,250 of Roswell from that pretty small 1076 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:11,250 original story and tracing it through 1077 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:14,730 time as it changed and evolved headline 1078 00:44:20,270 --> 00:44:18,450 edition July 8 1947 the Army Air Forces 1079 00:44:22,010 --> 00:44:20,280 has announced that a flying disc has 1080 00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:22,020 been found and is now in the possession 1081 00:44:26,290 --> 00:44:24,110 of the army army officers say 1082 00:44:28,870 --> 00:44:26,300 found sometime last week has been 1083 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:28,880 inspected at Roswell New Mexico and sent 1084 00:44:34,030 --> 00:44:30,530 to Wright Field Ohio for further 1085 00:44:35,950 --> 00:44:34,040 inspection new people came forward and 1086 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:35,960 new people wrote books and they looked 1087 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:40,370 at it as as a modern myth and kind of 1088 00:44:45,310 --> 00:44:42,290 looking at it through the scholarship of 1089 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:45,320 mythology and how myths evolve and what 1090 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:47,330 elements they hang on to and and what 1091 00:44:52,990 --> 00:44:50,570 they don't and it was pretty amazing how 1092 00:44:56,590 --> 00:44:53,000 it just followed the path of pretty much 1093 00:44:58,650 --> 00:44:56,600 any myth in human history but why I 1094 00:45:02,500 --> 00:44:58,660 think it's important to you follow G is 1095 00:45:04,390 --> 00:45:02,510 because it it it shows the capital G 1096 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:04,400 government actually spreading false 1097 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:06,650 information you know saying this thing 1098 00:45:11,170 --> 00:45:08,330 crashed it was a flying saucer 1099 00:45:14,530 --> 00:45:11,180 sike it was a weather balloon sike it 1100 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:14,540 was this you know nuclear test detector 1101 00:45:19,570 --> 00:45:17,210 and whatever you think of that chain of 1102 00:45:22,990 --> 00:45:19,580 events no matter whether your conclusion 1103 00:45:26,950 --> 00:45:23,000 is it was a nuclear test detector or it 1104 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:26,960 was a crashed spaceship regardless there 1105 00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:29,170 was misinformation put there on purpose 1106 00:45:34,420 --> 00:45:32,720 by the capital G government to divert 1107 00:45:37,060 --> 00:45:34,430 attention somewhere else and I think 1108 00:45:38,980 --> 00:45:37,070 that that is you know critical to the 1109 00:45:42,010 --> 00:45:38,990 way we think about UFOs today bringing 1110 00:45:44,590 --> 00:45:42,020 up the idea of a mythology is also very 1111 00:45:46,810 --> 00:45:44,600 important the town of Roswell without 1112 00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:46,820 this event who knows where it would be 1113 00:45:52,990 --> 00:45:49,310 now in terms of even its sheer existence 1114 00:45:54,460 --> 00:45:53,000 and yeah we there's so many towns like 1115 00:45:57,370 --> 00:45:54,470 this look at Point Pleasant with the 1116 00:45:59,620 --> 00:45:57,380 Mothman without these events drawing 1117 00:46:01,480 --> 00:45:59,630 people in look at Roswell has a festival 1118 00:46:04,420 --> 00:46:01,490 every year that brings in thousands and 1119 00:46:06,340 --> 00:46:04,430 thousands of people and it it kind of is 1120 00:46:07,420 --> 00:46:06,350 the only money keeping the place of why 1121 00:46:09,220 --> 00:46:07,430 you have to be honest 1122 00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:09,230 so it is interesting that these events 1123 00:46:15,670 --> 00:46:12,560 often have a commercial value to the 1124 00:46:18,220 --> 00:46:15,680 places it took placing yeah I mean Bravo 1125 00:46:19,300 --> 00:46:18,230 to the Roswell Tourism Board they know 1126 00:46:21,340 --> 00:46:19,310 what they're doing I think they've 1127 00:46:24,670 --> 00:46:21,350 recently changed their like official 1128 00:46:26,350 --> 00:46:24,680 logo to don't like a UFO so Roswell's 1129 00:46:29,020 --> 00:46:26,360 not going anywhere and we may never 1130 00:46:30,940 --> 00:46:29,030 truly know what happened but like you 1131 00:46:32,780 --> 00:46:30,950 said it is interesting tracing the 1132 00:46:34,940 --> 00:46:32,790 mythology as it changes 1133 00:46:37,220 --> 00:46:34,950 and unfortunately any first-hand witness 1134 00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:37,230 involved is long gone at this point so 1135 00:46:42,650 --> 00:46:38,640 we'll probably never know the truth but 1136 00:46:45,110 --> 00:46:42,660 it did create I would say that in the 1137 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:45,120 Kenneth Arnold sighting of 1947 it 1138 00:46:51,020 --> 00:46:48,570 created the UFO conversation UFO 1139 00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:51,030 phenomenon in the eyes of many Americans 1140 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:53,280 so it is a fascinating place for sure 1141 00:46:56,780 --> 00:46:54,690 and I'm so happy you got to go there 1142 00:46:57,830 --> 00:46:56,790 yeah I highly recommend the festival 1143 00:47:01,160 --> 00:46:57,840 it's a very good time 1144 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:01,170 it is a trip ok so chapter 8 to the 1145 00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:04,290 stars above telescope towns now this is 1146 00:47:08,990 --> 00:47:06,720 a an incident that happened that I don't 1147 00:47:11,150 --> 00:47:09,000 think a lot of people really remember 1148 00:47:13,780 --> 00:47:11,160 even I was like oh yeah I forgot about 1149 00:47:15,980 --> 00:47:13,790 this and this was the the sunspot 1150 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:15,990 observatory it's sort of faded into 1151 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:18,450 obscurity after the story came out so I 1152 00:47:22,550 --> 00:47:20,610 was wondering Sarah would you mind maybe 1153 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:22,560 painting us a picture of what we know 1154 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:25,530 that happened there and the conspiracies 1155 00:47:29,690 --> 00:47:27,570 that arose from the secrets possibly 1156 00:47:33,740 --> 00:47:29,700 being held in this area 1157 00:47:36,110 --> 00:47:33,750 sure so sunspot is a town in rural New 1158 00:47:40,460 --> 00:47:36,120 Mexico not far from Alamogordo New 1159 00:47:42,170 --> 00:47:40,470 Mexico and it is home to a solar 1160 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:42,180 observatory with a bunch of telescopes 1161 00:47:48,350 --> 00:47:45,330 that that watched the Sun in one day one 1162 00:47:51,020 --> 00:47:48,360 fall day a couple years ago the site 1163 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:51,030 shut down they evacuated the whole town 1164 00:47:55,820 --> 00:47:54,090 and the FBI was there no one including 1165 00:47:57,530 --> 00:47:55,830 law enforcement knew what was going on 1166 00:47:59,870 --> 00:47:57,540 and it was shut down for something like 1167 00:48:01,940 --> 00:47:59,880 two weeks and no one was allowed to go 1168 00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:01,950 back and no one not the telescope 1169 00:48:07,670 --> 00:48:05,910 operators or the FBI would say what was 1170 00:48:10,550 --> 00:48:07,680 going on so the FBI is investigating 1171 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:10,560 this one it all started with staff and 1172 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:12,890 the public being evacuated last Thursday 1173 00:48:17,090 --> 00:48:15,210 there's no word when they can get back 1174 00:48:20,300 --> 00:48:17,100 into the observatory and the FBI is 1175 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:20,310 keeping very quiet so of course the 1176 00:48:25,070 --> 00:48:23,010 Internet is positive it must be alien 1177 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:25,080 definitely alien yes go on 1178 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:27,330 well this is weird because the employees 1179 00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:29,490 at that Observatory are not federal 1180 00:48:33,710 --> 00:48:31,680 employees they're just like you or me 1181 00:48:35,690 --> 00:48:33,720 checking out the Stars for a living and 1182 00:48:38,270 --> 00:48:35,700 so when the feds show up they gave them 1183 00:48:39,770 --> 00:48:38,280 no information and so obviously we're 1184 00:48:42,410 --> 00:48:39,780 gonna speculate about it let's look at 1185 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:42,420 some tweets Charles Pierce he's verified 1186 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:43,650 so you know that what he's saying is 1187 00:48:46,460 --> 00:48:45,690 true right I'm definitely not saying 1188 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:46,470 it's aliens 1189 00:48:50,750 --> 00:48:47,970 but something weird is happening at a 1190 00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:50,760 solar observatory in New Mexico let's 1191 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:52,800 see what DJ has to say he's not verified 1192 00:48:56,420 --> 00:48:54,690 so he can say whatever he wants what in 1193 00:48:58,220 --> 00:48:56,430 the world is going on in sunspot New 1194 00:48:59,839 --> 00:48:58,230 Mexico why I have this Observatory - 1195 00:49:03,200 --> 00:48:59,849 post offices and nearby homes been 1196 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:03,210 evacuated for a full week now FBI and 1197 00:49:08,839 --> 00:49:05,970 Blackhawk choppers just saying guys the 1198 00:49:10,849 --> 00:49:08,849 aliens are coming and so people started 1199 00:49:13,370 --> 00:49:10,859 to speculate as they should 1200 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:13,380 any time the FBI evacuates an entire 1201 00:49:17,690 --> 00:49:15,330 town which to be fair it's a very small 1202 00:49:21,650 --> 00:49:17,700 town that is just dedicated to these 1203 00:49:25,010 --> 00:49:21,660 telescopes but you know people people on 1204 00:49:26,810 --> 00:49:25,020 above top-secret and and the reddit the 1205 00:49:29,870 --> 00:49:26,820 subreddit conspiracy and things like 1206 00:49:32,810 --> 00:49:29,880 that started to talk about what what 1207 00:49:34,370 --> 00:49:32,820 might be happening things like you know 1208 00:49:35,089 --> 00:49:34,380 maybe some of the installed spy 1209 00:49:37,460 --> 00:49:35,099 equipment 1210 00:49:39,710 --> 00:49:37,470 to look down on White Sands Missile 1211 00:49:42,140 --> 00:49:39,720 Range which is just below where this is 1212 00:49:44,570 --> 00:49:42,150 maybe there was a spy on the inside who 1213 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:44,580 was stealing some kind of data 1214 00:49:49,700 --> 00:49:46,770 maybe there was a mercury leak in the 1215 00:49:53,270 --> 00:49:49,710 telescope but then what within the media 1216 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:53,280 my people took from took from this was 1217 00:49:57,980 --> 00:49:55,290 maybe there's been an alien invasion 1218 00:49:59,540 --> 00:49:57,990 maybe these solar telescopes saw aliens 1219 00:50:01,670 --> 00:49:59,550 which doesn't really make any sense 1220 00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:01,680 because why would the aliens be on the 1221 00:50:07,609 --> 00:50:05,609 Sun ice nevertheless that's that's what 1222 00:50:09,770 --> 00:50:07,619 people thought and and because no one 1223 00:50:11,990 --> 00:50:09,780 would say anything these conspiracies 1224 00:50:15,170 --> 00:50:12,000 just got to keep on growing and and 1225 00:50:17,060 --> 00:50:15,180 spreading and I went out there I get 1226 00:50:19,250 --> 00:50:17,070 living in Colorado lots of things are 1227 00:50:22,099 --> 00:50:19,260 within a day's drive so I went out there 1228 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:22,109 and kind of snuck on sight by hiking 1229 00:50:25,730 --> 00:50:24,210 around back and you know there was no 1230 00:50:27,859 --> 00:50:25,740 one there the FBI wasn't there the 1231 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:27,869 police weren't there no one was stopping 1232 00:50:33,620 --> 00:50:30,930 me and it was just truly a mystery and 1233 00:50:36,530 --> 00:50:33,630 it was driving me crazy trying to figure 1234 00:50:40,810 --> 00:50:36,540 out what was going on but anyway what 1235 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:40,820 what what the story is now is that 1236 00:50:47,420 --> 00:50:44,490 someone was distributing child 1237 00:50:51,050 --> 00:50:47,430 pornography from the wireless network 1238 00:50:52,730 --> 00:50:51,060 that was associated with the observatory 1239 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:52,740 no one's been arrested that person 1240 00:50:57,230 --> 00:50:54,330 hasn't been arrested there's not been a 1241 00:50:59,329 --> 00:50:57,240 trial there's some holes I think in in 1242 00:51:01,460 --> 00:50:59,339 that story that make it pretty 1243 00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:01,470 unconvincing to me but what I found 1244 00:51:05,599 --> 00:51:03,359 interesting was the ways that we form 1245 00:51:07,579 --> 00:51:05,609 conspiracies around telescopes which are 1246 00:51:09,410 --> 00:51:07,589 like our window our window onto the 1247 00:51:10,970 --> 00:51:09,420 universe and how those connects to 1248 00:51:12,859 --> 00:51:10,980 aliens there's there's some kind of 1249 00:51:15,140 --> 00:51:12,869 alien conspiracy associated with most 1250 00:51:17,570 --> 00:51:15,150 telescopes and I thought this was a cool 1251 00:51:19,940 --> 00:51:17,580 way to witness one just being born out 1252 00:51:22,250 --> 00:51:19,950 of nothing that is really interesting 1253 00:51:25,700 --> 00:51:22,260 unfortunately you know the truth is 1254 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:25,710 often harder to take than fiction we 1255 00:51:31,220 --> 00:51:29,010 weave in our heads so it's you know 1256 00:51:33,950 --> 00:51:31,230 that's the reality of the situation and 1257 00:51:36,980 --> 00:51:33,960 at least we know what was going on there 1258 00:51:39,710 --> 00:51:36,990 and although it still remains a mystery 1259 00:51:42,410 --> 00:51:39,720 of why it was going on there but yeah 1260 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:42,420 like you said it says a lot about the 1261 00:51:47,359 --> 00:51:44,970 conspiracies we create or the mythos we 1262 00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:47,369 create when we're not given the answers 1263 00:51:51,859 --> 00:51:49,710 to things so really a really interesting 1264 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:51,869 chapter I really enjoyed that one and 1265 00:51:55,370 --> 00:51:54,570 then in your final chapter all along the 1266 00:51:58,010 --> 00:51:55,380 watchtower 1267 00:52:00,680 --> 00:51:58,020 so I'm gearing up actually for a trip 1268 00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:00,690 out to the San Luis Valley in a few 1269 00:52:04,940 --> 00:52:02,910 weeks and going to the UFO Watchtower 1270 00:52:07,220 --> 00:52:04,950 and not many people really know about it 1271 00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:07,230 or the lore behind the area where it's 1272 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:09,119 located so could you maybe tell us a 1273 00:52:13,130 --> 00:52:10,770 little about what you know of the San 1274 00:52:15,710 --> 00:52:13,140 Luis Valley and what you took away from 1275 00:52:17,900 --> 00:52:15,720 visiting this place yeah the San Luis 1276 00:52:21,500 --> 00:52:17,910 Valley is one of my favorite places in 1277 00:52:23,180 --> 00:52:21,510 in the West it's this big huge high 1278 00:52:26,180 --> 00:52:23,190 altitude valley that's sandwiched 1279 00:52:28,339 --> 00:52:26,190 between two mountain ranges one is where 1280 00:52:31,849 --> 00:52:28,349 the Rio Grande starts and the other is 1281 00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:31,859 this extremely rugged sub montón range 1282 00:52:36,829 --> 00:52:33,599 of the Rocky Mountains called the Sangre 1283 00:52:40,370 --> 00:52:36,839 de Cristo Mountains and at the base of 1284 00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:40,380 those mountains is are these like 700 1285 00:52:44,599 --> 00:52:42,510 foot tall sand dunes that just built up 1286 00:52:47,450 --> 00:52:44,609 there so you have this very desert e 1287 00:52:49,540 --> 00:52:47,460 valley random sand dunes giant Rocky 1288 00:52:51,470 --> 00:52:49,550 Mountains and it just looks like three 1289 00:52:51,950 --> 00:52:51,480 Geographic things that don't belong 1290 00:52:55,220 --> 00:52:51,960 together 1291 00:52:58,640 --> 00:52:55,230 we're smashed into this place and it's 1292 00:53:01,190 --> 00:52:58,650 at some point in some pole it was a the 1293 00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:01,200 place with the most UFO sightings per 1294 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:03,510 capita and although we should note 1295 00:53:07,340 --> 00:53:05,130 there's not a lot of per capita there 1296 00:53:09,740 --> 00:53:07,350 it's a pretty sparsely populated valley 1297 00:53:11,190 --> 00:53:09,750 but it you know you can see forever it's 1298 00:53:15,030 --> 00:53:11,200 very dark 1299 00:53:17,849 --> 00:53:15,040 and there is a guy named Chris O'Brien 1300 00:53:20,310 --> 00:53:17,859 who spent I think 10 years investigating 1301 00:53:22,890 --> 00:53:20,320 alleged events of high strangeness out 1302 00:53:24,390 --> 00:53:22,900 there and wrote three books I think the 1303 00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:24,400 most famous is of which is called the 1304 00:53:29,430 --> 00:53:27,310 mysterious valley and so it kind of had 1305 00:53:31,700 --> 00:53:29,440 this lore oh it was also the place where 1306 00:53:35,099 --> 00:53:31,710 one of the first may be the actual first 1307 00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:35,109 animal mutilation took place of snippy 1308 00:53:40,079 --> 00:53:38,079 the horse yeah yeah 1309 00:53:43,319 --> 00:53:40,089 and so there's there's this woman named 1310 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:43,329 Judy methylene who had heard about these 1311 00:53:47,010 --> 00:53:45,010 events she lived out there she'd 1312 00:53:48,569 --> 00:53:47,020 recently bought a ranch and she didn't 1313 00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:48,579 believe any of this stuff but she was 1314 00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:50,320 having trouble making her mortgage 1315 00:53:54,839 --> 00:53:52,089 payments so she decided to build this 1316 00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:54,849 tourist attraction for people to come 1317 00:54:01,319 --> 00:53:58,960 watch UFO sightings and eventually she 1318 00:54:04,050 --> 00:54:01,329 came to be a believer herself and now 1319 00:54:06,020 --> 00:54:04,060 there's like a mini Museum of people 1320 00:54:08,750 --> 00:54:06,030 sightings there and a kind of shrine 1321 00:54:11,550 --> 00:54:08,760 area where people leave behind their own 1322 00:54:13,980 --> 00:54:11,560 objects and you can kind of camp out go 1323 00:54:17,069 --> 00:54:13,990 up on this platform look for UFOs it's 1324 00:54:20,670 --> 00:54:17,079 um I like it out there but what what 1325 00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:20,680 what I took from it especially since so 1326 00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:24,250 much of UFO culture is you know kind of 1327 00:54:29,970 --> 00:54:27,760 very corporate big big commercial 1328 00:54:32,819 --> 00:54:29,980 operations big conferences this is a 1329 00:54:36,270 --> 00:54:32,829 really grassroots kind of off the radar 1330 00:54:38,970 --> 00:54:36,280 piece of piece of piece of place I guess 1331 00:54:43,770 --> 00:54:38,980 and you know it brings together people 1332 00:54:45,569 --> 00:54:43,780 who are hardcore UFO buffs who have seen 1333 00:54:47,099 --> 00:54:45,579 a lot of things and then just people who 1334 00:54:48,690 --> 00:54:47,109 are casually passing by on the highway 1335 00:54:49,410 --> 00:54:48,700 and brings them together to interact 1336 00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:49,420 with each other 1337 00:54:52,740 --> 00:54:51,280 brings the community together because 1338 00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:52,750 there's not a lot else in the San Luis 1339 00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:54,970 Valley and I I don't know I found it to 1340 00:55:01,260 --> 00:54:56,650 be a very heartening place I liked it 1341 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:01,270 yeah it definitely has a magnetism to it 1342 00:55:06,420 --> 00:55:03,970 and intrigue and it's it's beautiful too 1343 00:55:08,130 --> 00:55:06,430 I mean it's just endless endless land 1344 00:55:08,750 --> 00:55:08,140 where God knows what's going on out 1345 00:55:12,210 --> 00:55:08,760 there 1346 00:55:14,339 --> 00:55:12,220 yeah really interesting um and that kind 1347 00:55:15,690 --> 00:55:14,349 of wraps to the book Sarah no I don't 1348 00:55:17,609 --> 00:55:15,700 want to give away any of your 1349 00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:17,619 conclusions or closing remarks or 1350 00:55:21,660 --> 00:55:19,359 anything like that and we really only 1351 00:55:24,539 --> 00:55:21,670 scratched the surface of each chapter 1352 00:55:26,849 --> 00:55:24,549 but I'd love to maybe hear a 1353 00:55:29,549 --> 00:55:26,859 about what you learned in writing the 1354 00:55:33,269 --> 00:55:29,559 book and did it change your thoughts or 1355 00:55:35,789 --> 00:55:33,279 your opinions on UFOs or the subculture 1356 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:35,799 that kind of came out of that what did 1357 00:55:40,919 --> 00:55:38,170 you learn in this whole process that's a 1358 00:55:45,179 --> 00:55:40,929 good and hard question I think I mean I 1359 00:55:47,759 --> 00:55:45,189 come from the sciences and I also I was 1360 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:47,769 raised really religious and then left 1361 00:55:53,130 --> 00:55:50,410 religion and so I started out the book 1362 00:55:54,599 --> 00:55:53,140 kind of having a lot of resistance to 1363 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:54,609 other people's beliefs and not 1364 00:55:58,769 --> 00:55:56,410 understanding why there were so many 1365 00:56:00,599 --> 00:55:58,779 people who believed so many things that 1366 00:56:03,539 --> 00:56:00,609 I thought had so little evidence behind 1367 00:56:05,370 --> 00:56:03,549 them but I I mean I discovered that a a 1368 00:56:07,739 --> 00:56:05,380 lot of people who are interested in UFOs 1369 00:56:10,049 --> 00:56:07,749 don't have those beliefs they're just 1370 00:56:12,089 --> 00:56:10,059 interested in them and see like a fun 1371 00:56:13,949 --> 00:56:12,099 problem to try to solve and they want to 1372 00:56:16,709 --> 00:56:13,959 get to the bottom of it kind of 1373 00:56:19,949 --> 00:56:16,719 agnostically and that's cool and then 1374 00:56:22,079 --> 00:56:19,959 see I also came to feel like you know 1375 00:56:24,380 --> 00:56:22,089 what do I care if people believe things 1376 00:56:26,999 --> 00:56:24,390 that seem strange to me that's ok 1377 00:56:30,299 --> 00:56:27,009 everybody good to believe what they want 1378 00:56:32,189 --> 00:56:30,309 and I could be wrong they could be right 1379 00:56:34,439 --> 00:56:32,199 we all get to live our own lives and 1380 00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:34,449 it's oh I mean not to be a hallmark 1381 00:56:39,689 --> 00:56:36,130 about it but I feel like it made me a 1382 00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:39,699 more empathetic person like a better a 1383 00:56:45,539 --> 00:56:41,890 better human being 1384 00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:45,549 and it well I won't say that like I 1385 00:56:50,339 --> 00:56:49,089 don't think that UFOs are alien 1386 00:56:52,559 --> 00:56:50,349 spaceships visiting earth 1387 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:52,569 but whereas at the beginning of the book 1388 00:56:55,769 --> 00:56:54,249 I would have said yeah I probably know 1389 00:56:59,130 --> 00:56:55,779 that for certain 1390 00:57:00,870 --> 00:56:59,140 I think the way it changed them from me 1391 00:57:02,489 --> 00:57:00,880 was like you can't actually know 1392 00:57:04,919 --> 00:57:02,499 anything for certain and it's really 1393 00:57:06,269 --> 00:57:04,929 arrogant of me to say that and even if 1394 00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:06,279 it's a point zero zero one percent 1395 00:57:13,140 --> 00:57:09,729 chance that it's true like that's that's 1396 00:57:14,939 --> 00:57:13,150 not that's and yeah so I guess I guess I 1397 00:57:17,009 --> 00:57:14,949 came away more open-minded although my 1398 00:57:19,229 --> 00:57:17,019 overall opinion didn't change well there 1399 00:57:21,089 --> 00:57:19,239 you go I mean we look at someone like J 1400 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:21,099 Allen Hynek the astronomer who worked 1401 00:57:25,949 --> 00:57:23,650 for a project Bluebook and you know he 1402 00:57:28,499 --> 00:57:25,959 sort of turned around he was sent in to 1403 00:57:30,959 --> 00:57:28,509 debunk UFOs and he came out on the other 1404 00:57:33,059 --> 00:57:30,969 side as his son would tell me as an 1405 00:57:35,780 --> 00:57:33,069 acceptor of the phenomenon not a 1406 00:57:37,970 --> 00:57:35,790 believer which I think there's a huge if 1407 00:57:41,420 --> 00:57:37,980 I'm glad to hear you say that the door 1408 00:57:43,970 --> 00:57:41,430 is still slightly open that it could be 1409 00:57:46,430 --> 00:57:43,980 alien or it could be a million other 1410 00:57:50,210 --> 00:57:46,440 explanations just to say there's just 1411 00:57:51,830 --> 00:57:50,220 one answer to any of this so I'm glad to 1412 00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:51,840 hear you say that that you're still at 1413 00:57:55,310 --> 00:57:53,250 least willing to entertain the 1414 00:57:57,650 --> 00:57:55,320 possibility that's all we can ask really 1415 00:58:00,050 --> 00:57:57,660 from those who are more on the skeptical 1416 00:58:02,300 --> 00:58:00,060 side especially those in the hard 1417 00:58:04,730 --> 00:58:02,310 sciences or the scientific field in 1418 00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:04,740 general so that's that's really good to 1419 00:58:13,580 --> 00:58:07,050 hear I'm glad there was there is still a 1420 00:58:14,540 --> 00:58:13,590 glimmer of hope also interesting and 1421 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:14,550 like you said it's probably a 1422 00:58:19,580 --> 00:58:17,610 combination of them but you know if it's 1423 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:19,590 classified military aircraft that do 1424 00:58:23,660 --> 00:58:21,690 crazy things like I also I think that's 1425 00:58:25,820 --> 00:58:23,670 pretty interesting too yeah totally I 1426 00:58:29,450 --> 00:58:25,830 agree with you and you know sometimes I 1427 00:58:32,210 --> 00:58:29,460 I wonder if it is aliens that are what 1428 00:58:33,740 --> 00:58:32,220 are in control of these UFOs that's 1429 00:58:39,380 --> 00:58:33,750 actually probably one of the most boring 1430 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:39,390 answers but yeah I guess we'll maybe 1431 00:58:43,100 --> 00:58:41,010 we'll see the answer in our lifetime but 1432 00:58:45,260 --> 00:58:43,110 I wouldn't hold my breath but um you 1433 00:58:45,950 --> 00:58:45,270 recently came out with an article over 1434 00:58:48,500 --> 00:58:45,960 at Wired 1435 00:58:51,470 --> 00:58:48,510 that kind of ties both of your books 1436 00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:51,480 together when it comes to SETI and the 1437 00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:53,610 scientists and then the alien hunter 1438 00:58:57,770 --> 00:58:55,650 says you coined them so this kind of 1439 00:58:59,930 --> 00:58:57,780 mixing the worlds together of the two 1440 00:59:01,280 --> 00:58:59,940 book projects that you've done so could 1441 00:59:03,410 --> 00:59:01,290 you maybe tell us a little about the 1442 00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:03,420 article and how it relates to the work 1443 00:59:09,050 --> 00:59:05,850 you did on this book and beyond 1444 00:59:11,780 --> 00:59:09,060 sure yeah it takes a look at three 1445 00:59:15,830 --> 00:59:11,790 groups astrobiologists who mostly look 1446 00:59:18,650 --> 00:59:15,840 for biochemical and geological and you 1447 00:59:21,140 --> 00:59:18,660 know hard data evidence of potential 1448 00:59:24,890 --> 00:59:21,150 microbial life on other planets 1449 00:59:26,540 --> 00:59:24,900 and study scientists who look for these 1450 00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:26,550 transmissions from alien civilizations 1451 00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:30,570 and then UFO hunters who as I specified 1452 00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:32,250 in the article we're not this is 1453 00:59:35,330 --> 00:59:33,450 specifically talking about the 1454 00:59:37,130 --> 00:59:35,340 extra-terrestrial hypothesis version of 1455 00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:37,140 that not that not the other ones and it 1456 00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:38,760 kind of compares the way that 1457 00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:40,890 astrobiologists think of SETI 1458 00:59:45,620 --> 00:59:43,290 astronomers to the way SETI astronomers 1459 00:59:47,900 --> 00:59:45,630 think of you follow just where they each 1460 00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:47,910 think each of the others is a little bit 1461 00:59:53,690 --> 00:59:49,770 less legitimate 1462 00:59:55,730 --> 00:59:53,700 and it's it's asking the scientists 1463 00:59:58,400 --> 00:59:55,740 themselves I guess are just pointing out 1464 01:00:00,320 --> 00:59:58,410 to the reader that the lines we draw 1465 01:00:02,570 --> 01:00:00,330 about what what is legitimate science 1466 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:02,580 and what is not our a little bit 1467 01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:07,410 arbitrary and cultural and change over 1468 01:00:11,630 --> 01:00:09,330 time and that the reasons that 1469 01:00:13,460 --> 01:00:11,640 astrobiologists say study scientists 1470 01:00:15,140 --> 01:00:13,470 aren't legitimate are some of the same 1471 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:15,150 reasons study scientists a ufologist 1472 01:00:19,790 --> 01:00:18,210 aren't legitimate and so I guess the 1473 01:00:21,260 --> 01:00:19,800 takeaway is maybe we should all just be 1474 01:00:25,100 --> 01:00:21,270 a little bit easier on each other 1475 01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:25,110 yep work together it isn't any simpler 1476 01:00:30,859 --> 01:00:27,210 than that well people can read that over 1477 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:30,869 at wired.com and Sarah where can we find 1478 01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:34,170 the book and when can we find the book 1479 01:00:39,050 --> 01:00:36,450 and everything else here up to the book 1480 01:00:42,500 --> 01:00:39,060 comes out March 3rd you can pre-order it 1481 01:00:45,590 --> 01:00:42,510 right now on Amazon or Barnes & Noble or 1482 01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:45,600 a website called Indy bound IND ie bound 1483 01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:48,960 and I put all my work on my website 1484 01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:52,170 which is Sara skulls comm and then i am 1485 01:00:58,340 --> 01:00:56,250 on twitter at skulls sarah this has been 1486 01:01:00,830 --> 01:00:58,350 awesome it's so refreshing to see a 1487 01:01:03,980 --> 01:01:00,840 writer out there who can see both signs 1488 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:03,990 of the UFO coin as it were you know the 1489 01:01:09,050 --> 01:01:07,290 phenomenon and the study of it so I got 1490 01:01:10,670 --> 01:01:09,060 a thank you for writing this book first 1491 01:01:12,380 --> 01:01:10,680 and foremost and also for coming on 1492 01:01:16,420 --> 01:01:12,390 somewhere in the skies yeah thank you 1493 01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:18,890 that's it for this week's episode again 1494 01:01:23,780 --> 01:01:20,730 be sure to grab the book they are 1495 01:01:24,590 --> 01:01:23,790 already here on March 3rd wherever books 1496 01:01:26,780 --> 01:01:24,600 are sold 1497 01:01:28,910 --> 01:01:26,790 speaking of books check out my book 1498 01:01:31,820 --> 01:01:28,920 somewhere in the skies a human approach 1499 01:01:35,570 --> 01:01:31,830 to an alien phenomenon available on 1500 01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:35,580 Amazon in print and ebook I'll also be 1501 01:01:41,210 --> 01:01:37,710 selling books at contact in the desert 1502 01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:41,220 this spring so if you're in Indian Wells 1503 01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:44,010 California or in California in general 1504 01:01:50,180 --> 01:01:48,210 join us May 29th through June 1st to 1505 01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:50,190 learn more and to purchase tickets visit 1506 01:01:54,910 --> 01:01:52,490 contact in the desert 1507 01:01:58,180 --> 01:01:54,920 check out the official store with merch 1508 01:02:00,579 --> 01:01:58,190 at T public calm and just search for 1509 01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:00,589 somewhere in the skies you can follow us 1510 01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:03,050 on Twitter at summer skies and Instagram 1511 01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:06,410 at summer skies pod if you have a UFO 1512 01:02:10,599 --> 01:02:08,690 story you'd like to share and to contact 1513 01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:10,609 me personally about guests in topic 1514 01:02:14,790 --> 01:02:12,890 suggestions please reach out by using 1515 01:02:18,460 --> 01:02:14,800 the contact app on the official website 1516 01:02:21,070 --> 01:02:18,470 somewhere in the skies calm thanks to 1517 01:02:24,310 --> 01:02:21,080 the e one podcast network rogue planet 1518 01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:24,320 TV pegasus books and especially to you 1519 01:02:28,839 --> 01:02:26,330 for listening I'll see you here next 1520 01:02:31,870 --> 01:02:28,849 week and remember keep your feet on the 1521 01:03:13,380 --> 01:02:31,880 ground but never stop searching similar 1522 01:03:17,620 --> 01:03:15,850 somewhere in the skies is produced by 1523 01:03:19,540 --> 01:03:17,630 Third Kind productions in association 1524 01:03:21,310 --> 01:03:19,550 with the entertainment one podcast